The other sheep...

[catholic-rcia]

In John 10:16, Jesus states:
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who do you say are the other sheep?

Very good question coming from you.
I will answer “me” Pulls me back to Good Friday night.

Flyonwheel
I had a dream a few years back that was about those I had lost in this life. My mother at eight years old to suicide, my 16 year old brother to a tragic car accident, my aunt and uncle that I loved dearly along with my grandfather and grandmother who raised me.

In my dream it was a beautiful day, the sun gleaming down on a rolling green pasture. They were all to my left standing at a short distance under a very large blue oak. They had tears of joy in their eyes and were calling me over to them. I then heard the wail of a lamb and looked to my right. Down another hill was Jesus in a white robe un tangling the little bloodied lamb from a barbed wire fence. He looked up at me gently with a kind smile on his face and sad “Richy” This was my childhood’s name. Then He said “Come this way to me” I heard the voices of my family to my left continuing to say “Come to us”

But I had to walk over to Jesus. I found myself tangled in the barbed wire and he gently pulled me out. I was overwhelmed with un speakable joy as my Lord embraced me. When I opened my eyes over his shoulder was my family. I found them in Him and there were those I have known and to many others to count. I know who those others were in my dream. This is why I became Catholic. To worship my Lord and God front and center in my life.

God Bless
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Richard Kastner;7798162]Again what Paul is condemning here is trying to make THE LAW AS A MEANS OF SALVATION

.

And yet you hold to a single day of the Sabbath as giving you salvation?

For the body of Christ in the Catholic Church, God is honored and worshipped everyday, not just one day out of Eight.

Romans 14;4 Who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 (For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. 2
6 **Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7
None of us lives for oneself, and no one dies for oneself.
8
For if we live, we live for the Lord, 3 and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9
For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10
**Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; **11
for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
12
So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God).
13
**Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. **
14
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still, it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean. **

If you interpret the Sabbath to be made for “man” , then why did not Adam, his offspring Abel, Noah, Enoch who were never circumcised and they never kept the Sabbath?

Your interpretation that the Sabbath was made for “all” man, contradicts the scriptures. For one in the old covenant looked to the “others” as outside of this old covenant flock as aliens not man. The Hebrew idiums expressed to the other flock of Jesus speaks in terms that these are not “man” but other.

The CCC never removes or replaces the Sabbath day of the old covenant, this remains intact for those who reject Jesus new covenant in his blood and hold to the old covenant laws to be judged by Moses in the resurrection.

God has always revealed his presence on the Eighth day, Sunday, which is the first creation day when God separated darkness from the light.

Justin Martyr

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

Leviticus 9; 1 **On the eighth day **Moses summoned Aaron and his sons, together with the elders of Israel,
2 and said to Aaron, "Take a calf for a sin offering and a ram for a holocaust, both without blemish, and offer them before the LORD.
22 Aaron then raised his hands over the people and blessed them. When he came down from offering the sin offering and holocaust and peace offering,
23 Moses and Aaron went into the meeting tent. On coming out they again blessed the people. **Then the glory of the LORD was revealed to all the people. **
24 **Fire came forth from the LORD’S presence **and consumed the holocaust and the remnants of the fat on the altar. Seeing this, all the people cried out and fell prostrate.

God again in the New Covenant reveals himself in his glorious resurrection to his “Other flock” only on Sunday the eighth day, John 20:19, 20:26,

Luke 24:1 **But at daybreak on the first day **of the week they took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
13 Now that very day two of them were going to a village seven miles from Jerusalem called Emmaus,
15 And it happened that while they were conversing and debating, Jesus himself drew near and walked with them,
16 but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him.
30 **And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31 With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. **
33 So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them
36 **While they were still speaking about this, he stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
39 Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have." **

Here is my point; You make the false accusation that the Catholic Church has changed the Sabbath day. You give too much power over to the Catholic Church, she did not change the Sabbath day.

What She does is honor the Lord of the Sabbath “Every Day” from the rising of the sun to its setting. Sunday is the Lords day the new covenant day when Jesus reveals himself to “All” his Church “body” when we the Other flock of Jesus Christ now celebrate the

Sabbath ceremonials which Jesus has replaced them with his True body, blood soul and divinity. Whereby the Flock of the old covenant celebrated with 4 cups of wine, a slain lamb, with unleavened bread and consumed them all.

Jesus now presents himself to His “Other flock” as the true lamb of God, by giving his body for us to consume, Jesus gives His “Other flock” His true blood in the cup of blessing which we consume, Jesus reveals himself to His “Other flock” in the form of unleavened bread, which becomes His body, which we consume.

It is a Lie from hell to claim the CC replaced the Sabbath day, when She celebrates every day as a Sabbath and holds Sunday to be the Eighth day when God reveals himself to “All” his flock in His Eucharist just as scripture reveals. When the other flock gather together on the first day, Sunday.

From eternity John the revelator also reveals God’s presence is known on the Lords Day to be Sunday = Revelations 1:10

 

[DaveBj]

Of course.
It’s a boring job but somebody has to do it.

:yup:

 

[flyonthewall]

Just read through this thread, which seems to have turned from a question regarding “other sheep I have which are not of this fold” to a debate with SDA’s on the Sabbath. It appears that your OP is being derailed a bit.

As you can see Fly, the general consensus is that Christ was speaking of the Gentiles. What is the Mormon take on the “other sheep”?

I mainly wanted to see how others understood this passage, and who these “other sheep” might be.

LDS understand that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, so they would not hear His voice:

21And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

We also understand that there are still other sheep of other folds:

1And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.

2For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

3But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.

I realize this is different from anything anyone else has heard or accepts, but like I said before, I wanted to learn what others believe.

PS - the passage I cite are from the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 15 & 16

 

[flyonthewall]

Very good question coming from you.
I will answer “me” Pulls me back to Good Friday night.

Flyonwheel
I had a dream a few years back that was about those I had lost in this life. My mother at eight years old to suicide, my 16 year old brother to a tragic car accident, my aunt and uncle that I loved dearly along with my grandfather and grandmother who raised me.

In my dream it was a beautiful day, the sun gleaming down on a rolling green pasture. They were all to my left standing at a short distance under a very large blue oak. They had tears of joy in their eyes and were calling me over to them. I then heard the wail of a lamb and looked to my right. Down another hill was Jesus in a white robe un tangling the little bloodied lamb from a barbed wire fence. He looked up at me gently with a kind smile on his face and sad “Richy” This was my childhood’s name. Then He said “Come this way to me” I heard the voices of my family to my left continuing to say “Come to us”

But I had to walk over to Jesus. I found myself tangled in the barbed wire and he gently pulled me out. I was overwhelmed with un speakable joy as my Lord embraced me. When I opened my eyes over his shoulder was my family. I found them in Him and there were those I have known and to many others to count. I know who those others were in my dream. This is why I became Catholic. To worship my Lord and God front and center in my life.

God Bless
Rich
www.utahmission.com

Thank you for sharing such a profound experience.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner;7798162]Again what Paul is condemning here is trying to make THE LAW AS A MEANS OF SALVATION

.

And yet you hold to a single day of the Sabbath as giving you salvation?

Dispite the fact that this statement is patently untrue and nothing I have said even implies that it is. The very fact that you make this statement aren’t you saying that you agree that this is what Paul is saying?

For the body of Christ in the Catholic Church, God is honored and worshipped everyday, not just one day out of Eight.

Romans 14;4 Who are you to pass judgment on someone else’s servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 (For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. 2
6 **Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7
None of us lives for oneself, and no one dies for oneself.
8
For if we live, we live for the Lord, 3 and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9
For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10
**Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; ****11
for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
12
So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God).
13
**Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather resolve never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. **
14
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still, it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean.

Again you probably have a point with all this but it escapes me.

If you interpret the Sabbath to be made for “man” , then why did not Adam, his offspring Abel, Noah, Enoch who were never circumcised and they never kept the Sabbath?

Well first of all, I don’t have to interpret it. That’s what it says. Mark2: 27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: And these others undoubtedly did keep the Sabbath because it was given at creation as all the other commandments were. Gen2:2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Your interpretation that the Sabbath was made for “all” man, contradicts the scriptures. For one in the old covenant looked to the “others” as outside of this old covenant flock as aliens not man. The Hebrew idiums expressed to the other flock of Jesus speaks in terms that these are not “man” but other.

I think you should read the fourth commandment again

Ex20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It commands the strangers within the gates to keep the Sabbath.

The CCC never removes or replaces the Sabbath day of the old covenant, this remains intact for those who reject Jesus new covenant in his blood and hold to the old covenant laws to be judged by Moses in the resurrection.

This is a direct contradiction of the CCC tenet # 2175 that you yourself posted.

CCC 2175 states that "for Christians “ITS CEREMONIAL” observance replaces that of the Sabbath" (capitals mine). “In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ;”

God has always revealed his presence on the Eighth day, Sunday, which is the first creation day when God separated darkness from the light.

Again there are only seven days in a week. Sunday is the first.

Justin Martyr

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

cont;

So, Justin Martyr had it wron too.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

cont;

Leviticus 9; 1 **On the eighth day **Moses summoned Aaron and his sons, together with the elders of Israel,
2 and said to Aaron, "Take a calf for a sin offering and a ram for a holocaust, both without blemish, and offer them before the LORD.
22 Aaron then raised his hands over the people and blessed them. When he came down from offering the sin offering and holocaust and peace offering,
23 Moses and Aaron went into the meeting tent. On coming out they again blessed the people. **Then the glory of the LORD was revealed to all the people. **
24 **Fire came forth from the LORD’S presence **and consumed the holocaust and the remnants of the fat on the altar. Seeing this, all the people cried out and fell prostrate.

God again in the New Covenant reveals himself in his glorious resurrection to his “Other flock” only on Sunday the eighth day, John 20:19, 20:26,

Luke 24:1 **But at daybreak on the first day **of the week they took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
13 Now that very day two of them were going to a village seven miles from Jerusalem called Emmaus,
15 And it happened that while they were conversing and debating, Jesus himself drew near and walked with them,
16 but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him.
30 **And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31 With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. **
33 So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them
36 **While they were still speaking about this, he stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
39 Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have." **

Here is my point; You make the false accusation that the Catholic Church has changed the Sabbath day. You give too much power over to the Catholic Church, she did not change the Sabbath day.

You are the one that posted this Gab
Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
CCC 2175 states that “for Christians “ITS CEREMONIAL” observance replaces that of the Sabbath” (capitals mine). “In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ;” And if you go back and reread my posts I don’t beleive that I said that the CC changed the Sabbath What I did say was that it thought to change it. God’s law is foreverit was spoken by the mouth of God and written by His own finger. As such it is perfect. and what reason would there be to change something that is perfect?

What She does is honor the Lord of the Sabbath “Every Day” from the rising of the sun to its setting. Sunday is the Lords day the new covenant day when Jesus reveals himself to “All” his Church “body” when we the Other flock of Jesus Christ now celebrate the

Sabbath ceremonials which Jesus has replaced them with his True body, blood soul and divinity. Whereby the Flock of the old covenant celebrated with 4 cups of wine, a slain lamb, with unleavened bread and consumed them all.

So you are saying that the CC did change the Sabbath?

Jesus now presents himself to His “Other flock” as the true lamb of God, by giving his body for us to consume, Jesus gives His “Other flock” His true blood in the cup of blessing which we consume, Jesus reveals himself to His “Other flock” in the form of unleavened bread, which becomes His body, which we consume.

It is a Lie from hell to claim the CC replaced the Sabbath day, when She celebrates every day as a Sabbath and holds Sunday to be the Eighth day when God reveals himself to “All” his flock in His Eucharist just as scripture reveals. When the other flock gather together on the first day, Sunday.

From eternity John the revelator also reveals God’s presence is known on the Lords Day to be Sunday = Revelations 1:10

So, you aren’t saying the CC replaced the Sabbath? I’m getting very confused. You did post this did’nt you? And this is from the CCC isn’t it?

Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
CCC 2175 states that “for Christians “ITS CEREMONIAL” observance replaces that of the Sabbath” (capitals mine). “In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ;”

Let me put it all out there with some more.

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

Sounds like the CC is trying to replace the Lord’s Sabbath to me.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Just read through this thread, which seems to have turned from a question regarding “other sheep I have which are not of this fold” to a debate with SDA’s on the Sabbath. It appears that your OP is being derailed a bit.

As you can see Fly, the general consensus is that Christ was speaking of the Gentiles. What is the Mormon take on the “other sheep”?

It is my contention that in the last days, the time just before Jesus returns, the “Other Sheep” are Sunday keepers. So I don’t believe I am derailing this thread. The mods may disagree tho.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread started over.
Remain on the topic please

 

[catholic-rcia]

Where did this go off topic Eric?
Rich

 

[Rence]

In John 10:16, Jesus states:
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who do you say are the other sheep?

The other sheep are those who do not know Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

I mainly wanted to see how others understood this passage, and who these “other sheep” might be.

LDS understand that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, so they would not hear His voice:

We also understand that there are still other sheep of other folds:

I realize this is different from anything anyone else has heard or accepts, but like I said before, I wanted to learn what others believe.

PS - the passage I cite are from the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 15 & 16

Christ came to redeem all of mankind. God revealed Himself slowly over the course of salvation history, beginning with a family, then to a tribe, to a nation, to a kingdom and finally to the world through a universal Church. That was the mission of the apostles; to spread the kingdom of God to the whole world. It is our mission today, as the Body of Christ. We are now His hands and His feet and He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit.

Am I correct in assuming that your interpretation of the “other sheep” has to do with the LDS belief that Christ came to America; that the other sheep were the native Americans and that you are using this as justification for that belief?

 

[catholic-rcia]

It seems that so far, the “other” sheep not of this fold, are considered to be the gentiles.

I can understand why that would be the conclusion drawn.
However, in light of Matthew 15, Jesus stated that He was not sent to the gentiles, His ministry would be to the House of Israel. It seems logical that His other sheep not of this fold, would still be the House of Israel, but not there where He ministered.

Any other differing points of view?

Maybe this was already posted, anyway…

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (Isaiah 42:6)
**
Acts 13:47 “The Lord has commanded us, saying, I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth”
Acts 18:6 “Henceforth, I (Paul) will go unto the Gentiles”

Rom. 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom. 15:16 “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles”

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2:32
*Hope that helps *
Rich

 

[cyejbv]

I mainly wanted to see how others understood this passage, and who these “other sheep” might be.

LDS understand that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, so they would not hear His voice:

We also understand that there are still other sheep of other folds:

I realize this is different from anything anyone else has heard or accepts, but like I said before, I wanted to learn what others believe.

PS - the passage I cite are from the Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 15 & 16

Rich quoted a few great passages and to better understand I recommend you read all of Acts; indeed it’s the Gentiles to whom Jesus refers.
When you say Jesus was “not sent to the Gentiles”, it’s a little misleading. He was sent for all mankind: the Good News was for the world. It sounds like you might be edified with some research on what “Chosen People” means in light of your question; space and knowledge on my part do not permit elaboration Understanding the Jewish culture during the Apostolic age might help you understand the New Testament better, which in turn might clarify the context of Jesus’ teachings as well.
You mention that Gentiles would not hear his voice; yet the Greek woman (identified as a Gentile) in the gospel of Mark 7:26 “heard his voice”…while Caiphus (definitely Jewish) did not… the Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich) not only recounts Jesus not being ‘heard’ by many Jews, but also being abandoned by many of those who did hear, and professed love for Him.
Lastly, the scripture to which you refer in context and wholly: “I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must lead them too, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (Jn 10:16) As Catholics, we believe the one flock is the Church and the shepherd, the Holy Father… and that Gentiles are part of that flock. (Whew!)
Pax!

 

[PJM]

=flyonthewall;7779261]In John 10:16, Jesus states:
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Who do you say are the other sheep?

GREAT QUESTION!

The answer is from the begenning even in Genesis, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Daivd and Christ Jesus; there was always ONLY One God; One set of beliefs, One set of Practices that were acceptable and Only one Temple / Church. Only one.

This is affirmed and confirmed by over 100 passages in the NT making reference to only One Church, One Faith, One set of beleifs…

**Eph. 4: 1-7 “**I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift" ONLY ONE .

Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,** Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone**, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

This is made explicitly evident in Matt. 16:19 HERE JESUS IS SPEAKING TO PETER PERSOANLLY AS THEN NEWLY APPOINTED HEAD OF CHRIST CHURCH:

Matt.16:19 “I [Jesus] will [Did and DONE] give you [Peter] … [ALL OF THE] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [In other words: The Single Gate to heaven is Now through Peter; the CC and his successors …** See Mt. 28:19-20 and John 20:15-18] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

How non Catholics are able to ignore the so very OBVIOUS is amazing. Let us PRAY!

God Bless,

Pat

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons call everyone who is not Mormon, “gentile”, including Jews.

They believe they are adopted into the “House of Israel” when they are baptized Mormon, making them not gentile. A lot of Mormons receive a “patriarchal blessing”, by a man who has a special calling to give these blessings. In this blessing, they are told which tribe of Israel they have been adopted into.



I was explaining this to a Jewish co-worker once and they commented that Mormons are “aspiring Jews”. Which, yes, they are in many ways, except like their view of Christians, they think Jews are in apostasy and that Mormons have “restored” something.

 

[flyonthewall]

Christ came to redeem all of mankind. God revealed Himself slowly over the course of salvation history, beginning with a family, then to a tribe, to a nation, to a kingdom and finally to the world through a universal Church. That was the mission of the apostles; to spread the kingdom of God to the whole world. It is our mission today, as the Body of Christ. We are now His hands and His feet and He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit.

Am I correct in assuming that your interpretation of the “other sheep” has to do with the LDS belief that Christ came to America; that the other sheep were the native Americans and that you are using this as justification for that belief?

We believe that the “other sheep” Jesus referred to in Jerusalem were the Nephites/Lamanites, or Native Americans if you will, found upon the American continent.
As per the citations I provided, it is the words of Jesus Christ that identifies them as such.

On top of that, it makes sense. Jesus’ ministry was not to the Gentiles. It was to the House of Israel as they are His chosen people. Jesus stated this in Matthew 15:24: “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
He would send the Apostles to the Gentiles, but He, Himself, would minister to the House of Israel.

 

[flyonthewall]

Rich quoted a few great passages and to better understand I recommend you read all of Acts; indeed it’s the Gentiles to whom Jesus refers.
When you say Jesus was “not sent to the Gentiles”, it’s a little misleading. He was sent for all mankind: the Good News was for the world. It sounds like you might be edified with some research on what “Chosen People” means in light of your question; space and knowledge on my part do not permit elaboration Understanding the Jewish culture during the Apostolic age might help you understand the New Testament better, which in turn might clarify the context of Jesus’ teachings as well.

It is not misleading at all. Yes, Jesus’ message and gospel was for the whole world, but His ministry was ONLY to the House of Israel. He states this very explicity.

You mention that Gentiles would not hear his voice; yet the Greek woman (identified as a Gentile) in the gospel of Mark 7:26 “heard his voice”…while Caiphus (definitely Jewish) did not… the Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich) not only recounts Jesus not being ‘heard’ by many Jews, but also being abandoned by many of those who did hear, and professed love for Him.

This event that you refer to, Jesus Himself states: “But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.”. His ministry was ONLY to the House of Israel. The ministry to the Gentiles was to be completed by the Apostles.

Lastly, the scripture to which you refer in context and wholly: “I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must lead them too, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (Jn 10:16) As Catholics, we believe the one flock is the Church and the shepherd, the Holy Father… and that Gentiles are part of that flock. (Whew!)
Pax!

I appreciate your response. Thank you

 

[flyonthewall]

Maybe this was already posted, anyway…

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (Isaiah 42:6)
**
Acts 13:47 “The Lord has commanded us, saying, I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth”
Acts 18:6 “Henceforth, I (Paul) will go unto the Gentiles”

Rom. 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom. 15:16 “I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles”

A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2:32
*Hope that helps *
Rich

These all point to Christ’s ministry being ONLY to the House of Israel, and it was the Apostles that would minister to the Gentiles.