The other sheep...

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PJM said:
GREAT QUESTION! 👍

The answer is from the begenning even in Genesis, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Daivd and Christ Jesus; there was always ONLY One God; One set of beliefs, One set of Practices that were acceptable and Only one Temple / Church. Only one.

This is affirmed and confirmed by over 100 passages in the NT making reference to only One Church, One Faith, One set of beleifs…

**Eph. 4: 1-7 “**I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift" ONLY ONE :).

Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,** Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone**, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

This is made explicitly evident in Matt. 16:19 HERE JESUS IS SPEAKING TO PETER PERSOANLLY AS THEN NEWLY APPOINTED HEAD OF CHRIST CHURCH:

Matt.16:19 "I [Jesus] will [Did and DONE] give you [Peter] … [ALL OF THE] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [In other words: The Single Gate to heaven is Now through Peter; the CC and his successors …** See Mt. 28:19-20 and John 20:15-18]
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and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

How non Catholics are able to ignore the so very OBVIOUS is amazing. Let us PRAY!

God Bless,

Pat
I thank you for your response. I can understand how you can think it amazing how things that are so OBVIOUS to you are missed by others…
 
flyonthewall said:
We believe that the “other sheep” Jesus referred to in Jerusalem were the Nephites/Lamanites, or Native Americans if you will, found upon the American continent.
As per the citations I provided, it is the words of Jesus Christ that identifies them as such.
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Great! Then it should be easy for you to produce proof that the Native Americans are actually of Jewish ancestry that we may all believe.
 
Fly On The Wall,
Muslims also believe that Jesus was only sent for the House of Israel, not acknowledging that it was first the Children of Israel and then the Gentiles.

“It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,‘I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’” Acts 13:46,47

As Catholics, we believe in Apostolic authority, and that Jesus’ ministry continued and continues through His Church and by His authority, through them. Again, it was a ministry first for the Jews and then for Gentiles, but still for all:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations…” Matthew 28:18,19

Even prior to the “official” beginning of Jesus’ ministry, note Simeon’s prophecy in Luke 2:32: (Jesus is) "A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel.”

God Bless You!
 
flyonthewall said:
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You are being presented with truth here. The fact is Jesus did not have to go far to teach in order for the whole world to find Him. You know this in your heart. In all sincerity fly in comes down to choosing the real Divine Jesus, picking up your cross and following Him. You have a burning in your heart to have truth in your life, we all do. It’s a matter of giving up on your fears, possibly a few friends and yes even some family. The choice for many is not easy but it is the right one to make. Its pretty clear,. It comes down to the reality of Jesus, surrendering to Him. As an RCIA member for 12 years in Logan Utah I have never once seen this decision end up bad. People who truly love you come around, true friends, true family …Mormon or Catholic. You are staring the truth in the face, I hope through all the mud you see the face of Jesus here. I know exactly how His message reached me. This man who is a Catholic Saint gave his own life for me to someday be pointed to Jesus. This is one out of thousands and thousansds. They are your true History in Christ Jesus as well. Get to know Him just a little , you will get to know me as well.
utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html
I am of your true family fly. Those here our of your true family. We are the body of Christ.
 
=babylonsfalling;7795600]All unbelievers unto the ends of the earth, everyone from pagan Rome to American Indians, Chinese, Eskimo, etc.
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Actually your only partly correct:

The Bible in its ENTIREITY was completed by the End of the First Century

THEREFORE it was wriiten by and for Christ One Catholic Church [Mt. 16:19; Eph. 4:4-8]

As a Consequence it pertains in a very precise and special way to Ctholics and the CC.

This instance is saying EVERYONE ONE OUTSIDE THE CC…

There are over 100 NT references to ONLY one Church; so it’s TRUE!

God Bless us ALL!

Pat
 
I think of the “other sheep” as Johannine Christians who had become divided into “another fold.”
 
campeador said:
Great! Then it should be easy for you to produce proof that the Native Americans are actually of Jewish ancestry that we may all believe.
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Just as easy as providing proof of the Exodus.
The words of Jesus Christ are proof enough for me.
 
flyonthewall said:
We believe that the “other sheep” Jesus referred to in Jerusalem were the Nephites/Lamanites, or Native Americans if you will, found upon the American continent.
As per the citations I provided, it is the words of Jesus Christ that identifies them as such.
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You do realize that the only ones who will be convinced that these are the words of Jesus are LDS members. It stretches the imagination to think that something this important would not have been mentioned very specifically in the Bible.
flyonthewall said:
On top of that, it makes sense. Jesus’ ministry was not to the Gentiles. It was to the House of Israel as they are His chosen people. Jesus stated this in Matthew 15:24: “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
He would send the Apostles to the Gentiles, but He, Himself, would minister to the House of Israel.
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Matthew 10:5-6 reads "Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, 'Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."

Can you not read from this, very specifically, that the Apostles were to minister only to the Jews as well? We know, however, that this was not the case.

Jesus ministered to the Jews because “salvation is from the Jews”. In fact, Jesus did minister to the gentiles as evidenced by His conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well, which shocked his disciples. Even though His primary mission while on earth was to minister to the Jews, it was not exclusive. He drove out demons in the territory of the Gadarenes who were not Jewish either. They were raising pigs. In any event, once He had ascended, His mission was to the whole world. There was no longer Greek, nor Jew, slave, nor free.

Fly, may I ask, if it was necessary that Jesus physically visit America in order to bring His message, why didn’t He visit, say, Australia as well? Weren’t they cut off from the known world at that time?
 
SteveVH said:
Fly, may I ask, if it was necessary that Jesus physically visit America in order to bring His message, why didn’t He visit, say, Australia as well? Weren’t they cut off from the known world at that time?
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Because Steve Australia wasn’t the “land of promise”
 
:confused: The Jews left the “Promised Land” for the “Land of Promise”:confused:
 
SteveVH said:
You do realize that the only ones who will be convinced that these are the words of Jesus are LDS members.
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I do realize that.
It stretches the imagination to think that something this important would not have been mentioned very specifically in the Bible.
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Why would it stretch the imagination? Why would His visit to the America’s be important to those at Jerusalem? Afterall, Jerusalem knew nothing of them.
Matthew 10:5-6 reads "Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, 'Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."
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Can you not read from this, very specifically, that the Apostles were to minister only to the Jews as well? We know, however, that this was not the case.
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Jesus ministered to the Jews because “salvation is from the Jews”. In fact, Jesus did minister to the gentiles as evidenced by His conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well, which shocked his disciples. Even though His primary mission while on earth was to minister to the Jews, it was not exclusive. He drove out demons in the territory of the Gadarenes who were not Jewish either. They were raising pigs. In any event, once He had ascended, His mission was to the whole world. There was no longer Greek, nor Jew, slave, nor free.
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Jesus’ ministry was to the House of Israel only. His instructions to His disciples, during HIS ministry was to only minister to the House of Israel. AFTER His ministry, He sent the 12 to all the world.
Gadara, was located in the region of Decapolis, which used to be the land of Gad or Manasseh. Israelites lived thorugh out all the land of Israel, even lands that had been conquered.
Fly, may I ask, if it was necessary that Jesus physically visit America in order to bring His message, why didn’t He visit, say, Australia as well? Weren’t they cut off from the known world at that time?
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It was important, because He led them out of Jerusalem to the Americas, and as part of the House of Israel, His ministry was to them also.
As for not visiting Austrailia…I don’t know that he didn’t. He did state to the people in the Americas that He had yet other sheep of other folds to visit. We don’t know who those people were…
 
During Jesus’ earthly ministry He showed by many signs and miracles that He is the Messiah, the fulfillment of the law and prophecy.

Jesus is the new and everlasting covenant, sealed forever by the blood of the Cross.
The Good News of Jesus Christ Risen is Salvation for all humankind. He commended the Apostles to continue His ministry. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit descended on the Church, in Confirmation of the mission given to preach the Good News of Jesus Christ, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

People are brought to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, who is sent by the Father and the Son to convert the hearts of all, Jew and gentile.

There is no “other” ministry that belongs to any other.
 
Not to poke fun, but Christ was supposed to have come to North America to convert the natives because we were supposed to have been one of the lost tribes of Israel? In other words, we were supposedly Jewish?

I guess that would explain Mel Brooks’ portrayal of a Sioux war chief in “Blazing Saddles,” complete with Brooklyn accent! And it might explain why my sainted grandmother, God rest her soul, was to her dying day convinced that “schlepp” was actually a Mohawk word, along with “mishugenah” and “yutz.” (This was the occasional subject of many dinner table conversations when we moved to New York City from Akwesasne, she didn’t know why the “white guys” knew so many “Mohawk” words!)

On the real side, it always did bother me a little that we natives had to wait another 1500 years or so to hear the Gospel, and while I do admit that we were less than hospitable to some of its carriers, there were still many of us who responded favorably. My nations (the Iroquois) were always monotheistic, even before the white man came. Sorry for that thing with the Jesuits, yep, that was my nation, but it wasn’t my clan! Actually, I can trace membership in the Catholic Church on Mom’s side of the family to just after those days.

Like someone else here has posted, and space buff and old Trekkie that I am, I still secretly hope that some of the other sheep Jesus was talking about are extraterrestrials. If they exist, God created them, too, to His glory. Presumably in His own image and likeness, which since He is a spirit and can have many images and likenesses, is only limited by our imagination.
 
odile53 said:
Not to poke fun, but Christ was supposed to have come to North America to convert the natives because we were supposed to have been one of the lost tribes of Israel? In other words, we were supposedly Jewish?

I guess that would explain Mel Brooks’ portrayal of a Sioux war chief in “Blazing Saddles,” complete with Brooklyn accent! And it might explain why my sainted grandmother, God rest her soul, was to her dying day convinced that “schlepp” was actually a Mohawk word, along with “mishugenah” and “yutz.” (This was the occasional subject of many dinner table conversations when we moved to New York City from Akwesasne, she didn’t know why the “white guys” knew so many “Mohawk” words!)

On the real side, it always did bother me a little that we natives had to wait another 1500 years or so to hear the Gospel, and while I do admit that we were less than hospitable to some of its carriers, there were still many of us who responded favorably. My nations (the Iroquois) were always monotheistic, even before the white man came. Sorry for that thing with the Jesuits, yep, that was my nation, but it wasn’t my clan! Actually, I can trace membership in the Catholic Church on Mom’s side of the family to just after those days.

Like someone else here has posted, and space buff and old Trekkie that I am, I still secretly hope that some of the other sheep Jesus was talking about are extraterrestrials. If they exist, God created them, too, to His glory. Presumably in His own image and likeness, which since He is a spirit and can have many images and likenesses, is only limited by our imagination.
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You have Mohawk in your blood? My wife has both French and Mohawk in hers. She and Issac Jouges is how I came to find Jesus. How the Message has been spread for 2000 years. How far are you from where Kateri walked? The forrest that she would make crosses in?
Rich
 
Just in case ANYONE REALLY WANTS TO KNOW 🤷

“OTHER SHEEP” REFER TO EVERYONE OUTSIDE OF THE CC.

WHY?

BECAUSE GOD IN “ONE” AND TAUGHT FROM THE CREATION OF HUMANITY ONLY ONE GOD; ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS. [GEN. 1;26-27]

THIS SINGLENESS OF PURPOSE HAS NEVER BEEN WAVED OR CHANGED BY OUR GOD

THE KEYS TO HEAVEN REMAIN ONLY IN THE CC… THAT’S FRIENDS IS MORE THAN A HINT BY CHRIST [MT.16:19]

THE NT HAS OVER 100 REFERENCES TO ONLY ONE FAITH; ONE CHURCH

SHOW ME WERE CHRIST APPROVES OF MORE THAN ONLY ONE, AND I’LL BEG FORGIVENESS

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the **one hope **that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift".

**Eph. 2: 18-22 **“ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,singular; 1500 YEARS before THE BIRTH OF PROTESTANTISM] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [AGAIN SINGULAR]

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, [MY CATHOLIC CHURCH /MY CATHOLIC FAITH BELIEFS]one shepherd” [THE POPE] WHO IS CHRIST SHEPHERD ON EARTH:

John 21: 13-16 "This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to the disciples after he was raised from the dead. When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.” Amen Brethern!

God bless us ALL!,
Pat
 
flyonthewall said:
Just as easy as providing proof of the Exodus.
The words of Jesus Christ are proof enough for me.
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But Fly, faith by it’s nature isn’t always about proof, as you know. Also you say Jesus words are proof enough, yet the Mormon church discounts many of Jesus’ words, teaching that they believe the Bible insofar as it’s correctly translated, right? Mark 12:25 being a well known example of Jesus’ words discounted by the Mormons.
I don’t mention this to create contention, but I challenge you to consider: what IF… the other sheep were Gentiles? Ask yourself questions, from Apostolic Succession to archaelogy, you may find more “proof” than you are aware exists. I don’t suggest these things to try and deceive or trick you, I know that the Mormon church warns about people like me 🙂 leading people like you astray. But what IF the fact that there isn’t a shred of proof of a civilization like the one mentioned in the BOM leads you to truth?
As per your quote above I pray you consider information that perhaps you never have.I am reading a book right now that, though I think it would fall under the category of natural science more than religion, says this in its introduction:

“Return to Sodom and Gomorrah” by Charles Pellegrino

“I know of a sea whose waters stood up like a wall–stood up, in places, higher than the Pyramids…The stories of Exodus and Joshua, some will argue, are strictly “fairy tales”. But geology and archaelogy have begun to teach us that several major OT events that seem utterly fantastical today-among them the parting of the Egyptian waters… have some very real kernels of truth. The rocks and the ruins tell us so.”

Faith never fears reason, but God isn’t an author of confusion either. He left us with tangible foundations for our faith. Voltaire had it wrong about why fossils were in rocks. It wasn’t to “tempt the fidelity of geologists” but to take care of us: My young son’s thesis is that He knew we would need oil!

God Bless You.
I mean that.
Pax!
 
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