The other side of the NFP/birth control coin

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If it is not a sin to abstain during fertile periods in order to avoid pregnancy for serious reasons, is it then a sin to fail to abstain when those serious conditions are in effect? For example, someone is living close to the poverty line and would definitely require public assistance.
 
milkbar said:
If it is not a sin to abstain during fertile periods in order to avoid pregnancy for serious reasons, is it then a sin to fail to abstain when those serious conditions are in effect? For example, someone is living close to the poverty line and would definitely require public assistance.
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No, because procreation in and of itself is not sinful, and can never be. Foolish perhaps, or ill-advised, but not sinful.

How one looks at the matter really depends. My family and I live well below the poverty level, we use no contraception (not even NFP) and yet we live a simple life without public assistance. I think it is really a matter of the situation and the people, to know what a family should do.
 
Abstinence was actually recommended for married people in the early Church:

“Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife”–Lactantius, Divine Institutes 6:20 [A.D. 307]
 
BerhaneSelassie said:
Abstinence was actually recommended for married people in the early Church:

“Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife”–Lactantius, Divine Institutes 6:20 [A.D. 307]
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Amen!:clapping:
 
God created a woman to work in a certain way. To have times of fertility and in-fertility. As intelligent human beings we have taken what God has created and devloped a way to determine when those times are.

Why? Well. God wants us to be happy and enjoy our lives to the fullest while carrying out His will and doing His work in the world. God wants us to consult Him and try to do His will in every aspect of our lives. Just like when we are deciding on a new job, or a new house, or any big event, with prayer and faith we can determine if the time is right for Children. God wants us to have kids, but certainly doesn’t want to force them on us.

With NFP we can use our knowledge of a womans fertility that God has given us, to avoid or achieve pregnancy, while still living out a fullfilling physical relationship with our spouse.

There is nothing wrong with birth control as long as it’s natural. 👍
 
I don’t know what Catholicism would technically say, but I think it’s pretty irresponsible.
 
Creating a burden on others? I can’t say I think that is a moral choice. You get all the joy, and others get the bills.
 
So that is a case when it would be a sin for a married couple to engage in the marital act even if all other conditions are present. If having a child would create a true hardship, or if one or both of the parents genuinely do not feel psychologically adequate to the task, etc. – If one of the grave reasons making abstinence permissible is present, it is actually not only permissible but required.

This is a big deal. Is this covered in premarital counseling sessions?
 
milkbar said:
So that is a case when it would be a sin for a married couple to engage in the marital act even if all other conditions are present. If having a child would create a true hardship, or if one or both of the parents genuinely do not feel psychologically adequate to the task, etc. – If one of the grave reasons making abstinence permissible is present, it is actually not only permissible but required.
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No. The Church does not teach this.

People are expressing their opinion, but not stating Church teaching.
 
1ke said:
No. The Church does not teach this.

People are expressing their opinion, but not stating Church teaching.
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You are absolutely correct. Even if a priest discusses these things before marriage, the Church also notes that one should not marry unless one is ready and open for children, which is one of the chief ends of marriage according to Castii Canubi by Pope Pius XI, and many other Church documents of course.
 
1ke said:
No. The Church does not teach this.

People are expressing their opinion, but not stating Church teaching.
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It’s either true or it’s not… right?

Although I suppose if this line of reasoning were correct, then Pope Paul VI would have used the word “required” rather than “permissible” (or, rather, the Italian
equivalents)… so perhaps it’s not a sin?
 
milkbar said:
If it is not a sin to abstain during fertile periods in order to avoid pregnancy for serious reasons, is it then a sin to fail to abstain when those serious conditions are in effect? For example, someone is living close to the poverty line and would definitely require public assistance.
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In order to be moral, all three fonts of morality of the chosen act must be good:

[1] intention of the person choosing the act
[2] the chosen act itself, with its moral object
[3] circumstances, especially the consequences

The intention must be good.
Natural marital relations open to life has a good moral object, so the second font is good.
The third font of circumstances is good if the good consequences of the act outweigh any bad consequences.

It is possible for a couple to sin by being irresponsible with procreation. It would be a sin for a married couple to have natural marital relations frequently, without NFP, if the circumstances are such that they are procreating more children than they can care for, resulting in more bad consequences than good consequences. Human persons do not act morally when they act without regard for the consequences of their actions, nor when they act knowing that the bad consequences outweigh the good consequences.

“All three aspects must be good – the objective act, the subjective intention, and the circumstances – in order to have a morally good act.” (USCCB Catechism, p. 312)
 
EnchantedEve said:
No, because procreation in and of itself is not sinful, and can never be. Foolish perhaps, or ill-advised, but not sinful.
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natural marital relations open to life has a good moral object; it is a good type of act, not an intrinsically evil type of act; it is not in and of itself sinful.

However, a good moral object is not sufficient to cause the act to be moral, the intention and the circumstances must also be good. I’m not convinced that merely living below the poverty line will result in more bad consequences than good consequences, but the principle still applies in general.
 
Brothers and sisters, rationalizing the human control of childbearing is easily leading us to legal child killing. (I and many others have had abortions for the reasons mentioned in this thread). Peace&Prayers.
 
Just because having children without any control isn’t morally good, doesn’t mean that you have to have an abortion. It means you have to have sex less. You can’t say abortion is bad, therefore people should just have sex with abandon and not worry about how many children they are having.
 
Arwen037 said:
Just because having children without any control isn’t morally good, doesn’t mean that you have to have an abortion. It means you have to have sex less. You can’t say abortion is bad, therefore people should just have sex with abandon and not worry about how many children they are having.
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This is absolutely not what I’m saying. I could elaborate on what kind of actions we can take to address the causes of abortion but that would be off topic. I was just saying that the reasons invoked in this thread sound strangely like what I read on Planned Parenthood’s website:

“Most U.S. women cite more than one factor contributing to their decision to have an abortion: Almost three-quarters say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about three-quarters say they cannot afford to have a child; and almost half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.” guttmacher.org/in-the-know/characteristics.html

And also, abortion is not merely bad, it is as Pope Benedict puts it an intrinsic evil.

Finally, I find your statement really odd. How can having children be morally wrong? This is not what the Catholic Church teaches, is it?
 
I’m sorry, it just sounded like you were saying we shouldn’t make these arguments for controlling how many children you have, because people use these reasons to have abortions.

And I didn’t say it is morally wrong, I said it wasn’t morally good. There is a difference. Do you think that if you can’t afford to have a child (pay for the medical bills, food, etc.) that it is a good choice to have one?

And I’m not sure the Church has taken an official position on having children when there is a good reason you shouldn’t.
 
Arwen037 said:
And I didn’t say it is morally wrong, I said it wasn’t morally good. There is a difference. Do you think that if you can’t afford to have a child (pay for the medical bills, food, etc.) that it is a good choice to have one?

And I’m not sure the Church has taken an official position on having children when there is a good reason you shouldn’t.
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My big picture here is the “quiverfull” mindset I’ve witnessed for years as a Protestant. It’s intriguing to me that those people are not Catholic (!)… but I’ve spent a lot of time around one family in particular, and if they had a motto it would be “The Lord Will Provide.” And I don’t much see that here at CAF. The Catholic attitude toward procreation seems to be that God has given us a measure of control for a reason and we ought to wield that control wisely. Yet if there’s a good reason not to have children, why does God give us children when we think the timing isn’t right/we can’t afford them/etc.? Or does God do the giving? Who’s really in control over this? Or is the answer never the same?

And this brings up a host of other questions for me again re: where exactly God is in fertility/conception. I asked those questions in my very first post on this forum, which I believe was in this Moral Theology sub-forum. If anyone is interested I’m assuming there is a way to find my posts. There were maybe three replies. All issues I’m still mulling over. (I have miscarried before.)

We are, as a family, in a state of transition which will likely last a few more years (school, etc.). Without going into details, if I were to become pregnant again (which would not necessarily be on purpose even if I allowed us to slip up in our timing), my state would pay for the pregnancy and delivery, for which I feel guilty. Also, this is far from an ideal time for many, many reasons. Yet having only just recently emerged from Quiverfull Land, I feel residual guilt over not trusting God with my fertility. I’m almost 100% certain failure to abstain during fertile times would result in another pregnancy within a cycle or two. A pregnancy which we technically can’t afford.

I have the additional issue of my husband not being Catholic. He may someday convert but he’s not on board right now. He goes along with my newfound Catholic convictions but our abstinence during the fertile [or maybe-fertile or let’s-just-be-extra-careful] times prior to ovulation is often not mutual. He doesn’t pressure me or guilt-trip me (he is so wonderful, really) but, well, he can’t help but let me know he’s not on the wagon, you know? And he would love to have another baby. So this burden is mine and I’m often left with feelings of guilt and selfishness all around. What in the world do I do about all of this? What’s my ultimate moral obligation here? I feel like I might be sinning no matter what.

If I just got pregnant, none of this would matter anymore! …Or it wouldn’t matter for about a year, anyway, and then I’d be right back here not knowing what to do. I really need to know and be satisfied that I’m doing the right thing. Please help this crazy mom.
 
milkbar said:
If it is not a sin to abstain during fertile periods in order to avoid pregnancy for serious reasons, is it then a sin to fail to abstain when those serious conditions are in effect? For example, someone is living close to the poverty line and would definitely require public assistance.
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It can be. For example if a pregnancy might harm your wife’s health it would be a very serious sin not to abstain.
 
Thanks Arwen for your reply. Somebody said that people are expressing their opinion here, not what the Church teaches. 50% of the reason I’m on this forum is to hear what the Church teaches (the other 50% to hear and share personal experiences on a subject). Somebody (Ron I think) is interpreting the Catechism to make a point that conceiving a child can be a sin. Others including myself are not sure about Church teaching about conceiving a child in difficult circumstances. So here is what I found on the USCCB website: quote from “Married Love” usccb.org/laity/marriage/MarriedLove.pdf

quote:"A couple need not desire or seek to have a child in each and every act of intercourse. And it is not wrong for couples to have intercourse even when they know the wife is naturally infertile, as discussed below. **But they should never act to suppress or curtail the life-giving power given by God that is an integral part of what they pledged to each other in their marriage vows. **This is what the Church means by saying that every act of intercourse must remain open to life and that contraception is objectively immoral."

“Are couples expected to leave their family size entirely to chance?”
“Certainly not. The Church teaches that a couple may generously decide to have a large family, or may for serious reasons choose not to have more children for the time being or even for an indefinite period (Humanae Vitae, no. 10). In married life, serious circumstances—financial, physical, psychological, or those involving responsibilities to other family members—may arise to make an increase in family size untimely. The Church understands this, while encouraging couples to take a generous view of children. What should a couple do if they have a good reason to avoid having a child? A married couple can engage in marital intimacy during the naturally infertile times in a woman’s cycle, or after child-bearing years, without violating the meaning of marital intercourse in any way.This is the principle behind natural family planning (NFP). Natural methods of family planning involve fertility education that enables couples to cooperate with the body as God
designed it.”

beafedor: So we are encouraged to take a generous view of children and it’s OK to use NFP for the reasons the Bishops have stated above including financial reasons. However, they do not say that having a child in a difficult situation is a sin.

Peace be with you all.
 
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