The Our Father Prayer

[PePPaR]

“As we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation.”

We pray to Our Father, Our Lord God in this prayer. Then why does it ask God to ‘lead us not into temptation’. Isn’t this statement quite preposterous? We should not be asking God to not lead us into temptation. God DOES NOT lead anyone into temptation.

I’ll add that I’ve heard somewhere that Pope John Paul II tried to change this in the prayer but his proposed amendment did not prevail. Please tell me whether this is true or not. But I don’t see why this comment still remains in one of our most vital prayers…

 

[srferdave]

“As we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation.”

We pray to Our Father, Our Lord God in this prayer. Then why does it ask God to ‘lead us not into temptation’. Isn’t this statement quite preposterous? We should not be asking God to not lead us into temptation. God DOES NOT lead anyone into temptation.

I’ll add that I’ve heard somewhere that Pope John Paul II tried to change this in the prayer but his proposed amendment did not prevail. Please tell me whether this is true or not. But I don’t see why this comment still remains in one of our most vital prayers…

I think its another way of saying lead us away from temptation. It’s asking God to keep us away from sin.

About Pope John Paul II… I don’t know the answer, but I can’t imagine him trying to change this. Its in the bible.

 

[Tietjen]

“As we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation.”

We pray to Our Father, Our Lord God in this prayer. Then why does it ask God to ‘lead us not into temptation’. Isn’t this statement quite preposterous? We should not be asking God to not lead us into temptation. God DOES NOT lead anyone into temptation.

I’ll add that I’ve heard somewhere that Pope John Paul II tried to change this in the prayer but his proposed amendment did not prevail. Please tell me whether this is true or not. But I don’t see why this comment still remains in one of our most vital prayers…

Well, when we see Jesus Christ we can ask Him why he gave us the prayer the way He did. As to Pope John Paul II trying to change and improve upon the words of Christ… I don’t think so. See Mat 6:9-13

God bless.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Not a long article by any means. Father William Saunders explaining “lead us not into temptation”. We really should understand what it means since we pray it in the Lord’s Prayer which includes at Mass:
catholicherald.com/saunders/06ws/ws060309.htm

Lead Us Not into Temptation
**By Fr. William P. Saunders
Herald Columnist
**(From the issue of 3/9/06)

In the Our Father, we pray, “And lead us not into temptation.” This sounds a little odd, because why would God lead us into temptation? — A reader in Alexandria
Upon first hearing, this petition of the Our Father does sound like we are asking God not to lead us into temptation. (The Our Father is found in Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4.) In this sense, the petition sounds like God would purposely place us in temptation and set us up for a fall to sin. The literal translation of the Greek text is indeed, as we recite, “and lead us not into temptation.”
Consequently, we must understand this petition in its context. The preceding petition asks our heavenly Father to forgive us our sins as we forgive others — a very positive petition imploring an outpouring of God’s healing grace. The petition in question must also be viewed positively: it asks the Father not to lead us into temptation, but not in the sense of God putting us into temptation. St. James reminds us, “No one who is tempted is free to say, ‘I am being tempted by God.’ Surely God, who is beyond the grasp of evil, tempts no one” (Jas 1:13). Our Lord would never set us up for a fall to sin…***…to conclude the article go to ***here

 

[Balance]

A different translation of the Lord’s Prayer, used in some countries, goes like this:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil.

so “lead us not into temptation” is rendered here as “save us from the time of trial”.

 

[Tietjen]

A different translation of the Lord’s Prayer, used in some countries, goes like this:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil.

so “lead us not into temptation” is rendered here as “save us from the time of trial”.

That version comes from the English Language Liturgical Consultation. Which is a group of Christians who attempt to take many of the prayers common between protestant denominations and rewrite them is a manner that everyone can agree upon. The Catholic Church does not use the ELLC translations.

We use the Greek:
Greek Lord's Prayer:

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας. ἀμήν.]

and from that we have the Latin:
Latin Lord's Prayer:

Pater noster, qui es in caelis:
sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;
adveniat Regnum Tuum;
fiat voluntas Tua,
sicut in caelo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
Sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;
et ne nos inducas in tentationem;
sed libera nos a Malo.

and from that we have the English version.

 

[NotWorthy]

Fr. Corapi likes the Spanish rendering of this phrase. He says it best translates to:

“And do not let us fall into temptation”

That’s how I pray it when I say my Rosary.

 

[thistle]

Below is an approved version which many of the Church’s use at Mass in Asia:

Our Father in Heaven,
Holy be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Do not bring us to the test.

 

[inthecloud]

“And do not let us fall into temptation”

No nos dejes caer en tentaciòn. (in Spanish)

That translation is a correct one.

 

[NotWorthy]

“And do not let us fall into temptation”

No nos dejes caer en tentaciòn. (in Spanish)

That translation is a correct one.

That’s how I say it during my daily prayers. The only problem is, I get so used to it that I sometimes zone out in Mass and say it during the Our Father. That’s when my son gives me that look that says, “How can you mess up the Our Father?!?!”

 

[Balance]

That version comes from the English Language Liturgical Consultation. Which is a group of Christians who attempt to take many of the prayers common between protestant denominations and rewrite them is a manner that everyone can agree upon. The Catholic Church does not use the ELLC translations.

We use the Greek:

and from that we have the Latin:

and from that we have the English version.

As another poster pointed out, in some parts of the world, the Church does actually use the ELLC translation. In parts of Asia apparently, and I know in New Zealand too. This is the sort of thing that different bishops, or conferences of bishops, have the authority to approve, in union with Rome, for the local Church.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I was tempted to post citations from St. Augustine and Aquinas, but I figured the the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the best source.

VI. “AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION”

2846 This petition goes to the root of the preceding one, for our sins result from our consenting to temptation; we therefore ask our Father not to “lead” us into temptation. It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both “do not allow us to enter into temptation” and "do not let us yield to temptation."150 “God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one”;151 on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin. We are engaged in the battle “between flesh and spirit”; this petition implores the Spirit of discernment and strength.

2847 The Holy Spirit makes us discern between trials, which are necessary for the growth of the inner man,152 and temptation, which leads to sin and death.153 We must also discern between being tempted and consenting to temptation. Finally, discernment unmasks the lie of temptation, whose object appears to be good, a “delight to the eyes” and desirable,154 when in reality its fruit is death.

God does not want to impose the good, but wants free beings. . . . There is a certain usefulness to temptation. No one but God knows what our soul has received from him, not even we ourselves. But temptation reveals it in order to teach us to know ourselves, and in this way we discover our evil inclinations and are obliged to give thanks for the goods that temptation has revealed to us.155
2848 “Lead us not into temptation” implies a decision of the heart: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. . . . No one can serve two masters."156 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."157 In this assent to the Holy Spirit the Father gives us strength. "No testing has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, so that you may be able to endure it."158

2849 Such a battle and such a victory become possible only through prayer. It is by his prayer that Jesus vanquishes the tempter, both at the outset of his public mission and in the ultimate struggle of his agony.159 In this petition to our heavenly Father, Christ unites us to his battle and his agony. He urges us to vigilance of the heart in communion with his own. Vigilance is “custody of the heart,” and Jesus prayed for us to the Father: "Keep them in your name."160 The Holy Spirit constantly seeks to awaken us to keep watch.161 Finally, this petition takes on all its dramatic meaning in relation to the last temptation of our earthly battle; it asks for final perseverance. "Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake."162

 

[buffalo]

Pope Benedict XVI develops this fully in Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

It seems that one must be careful when asserting that, “God does not tempt.” This is perhaps being understood too broadly. God does not tempt – the tempter does – however, God does lead people to temptation.

Consider: “Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil,” (Matthew (NAB) 4:1).

The Spirit is God, He led Jesus “to be tempted,” but did not tempt Him Himself. The Devil can be relied on to provide the temptations.

Jesus advised us to expect this: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit,” (John (NAB) 15:1-2).

This is central to the role of the hierarchy and of the papacy: “Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you (plural) like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you (singular) have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers,” (Luke (NAB) 22:31-32).

St. James tells us to be grateful for the strength we gain through it: “Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing," (James (NAB) 1:2-3).

I have lately been hearing this line of the Our Father as a proactive request, namely that the time of pruning be past, so that one can get about the business of producing fruit. Viewed in this light, it is a request to be done with training in the Faith, so that one can pitch in with the real work of “delivering us from evil (or the evil one).”

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[Padraig_77]

“As we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation.”

We pray to Our Father, Our Lord God in this prayer. Then why does it ask God to ‘lead us not into temptation’. Isn’t this statement quite preposterous? We should not be asking God to not lead us into temptation. God DOES NOT lead anyone into temptation.

I’ll add that I’ve heard somewhere that Pope John Paul II tried to change this in the prayer but his proposed amendment did not prevail. Please tell me whether this is true or not. But I don’t see why this comment still remains in one of our most vital prayers…

The English line “lead us not into temptation” is actually a bad translation, as God does not and would not actively “lead us” into temptation, a notion that would make Him the Author of evil. Though the Pater has been prayed this way in English for hundreds of years and there is no need to change it now, one must keep in mind that a more literal translation would be “allow us not to succumb to temptation.” James 1:13-14: “Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils: and He tempteth no man. But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.”

fisheaters.com/prayers.html#1

 

[John_Hiner]

The English line “lead us not into temptation” is actually a bad translation, as God does not and would not actively “lead us” into temptation, a notion that would make Him the Author of evil. Though the Pater has been prayed this way in English for hundreds of years and there is no need to change it now, one must keep in mind that a more literal translation would be “allow us not to succumb to temptation.” James 1:13-14: “Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils: and He tempteth no man. But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.”

fisheaters.com/prayers.html#1

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Why is it a bad translation?

καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, (Matthew (GRA) 6:13).

et ne inducas nos in temptationem (Matthew (VUL) 6:13).
Neither “εἰσενέγκῃς” nor “inducas” is fairly translated as “allow to succumb.”

Please consider post No. 14 above, before accepting the “argument” quoted from the “fisheaters” site. Unless someone has some solid evidence of a Greek idiom on which this argument relies, it does not seem to bear up as a tool for interpreting the text.

“Lead (or carry) us not into temptation (or testing)” is a direct and fair translation. Further, it is consistent with the other parts of the Scripture.

The argument that God does not test or allow the Devil to tempt seems to be part of the general reluctance that some have to believe in the Devil or his claims on human souls. God never allows us to be tempted beyond the grace He affords us to meet the test. However, we are severely crippled in standing up to the test, if we deny that it is among the things that we are required to face.

To put the matter more “positively:” Love must be a free choice. The Devil offers attractive alternatives to the love which God desires of us. If God did not allow us to be offered the alternatives, and to seriously engage them, then we could never choose against them in a way which would allow us to authentically and freely love God. God is not the “author of evil” when He leads us into the Devil’s temptations. (Frankly, I would rather face such tests under God’s leadership, than to fall into them on my own – at times when I would surely be less disposed to meet the challenge and survive the temptation.) God is a fair and loving Father, who allows His children to authentically choose whether to love Him.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[Tietjen]

As another poster pointed out, in some parts of the world, the Church does actually use the ELLC translation. In parts of Asia apparently, and I know in New Zealand too. This is the sort of thing that different bishops, or conferences of bishops, have the authority to approve, in union with Rome, for the local Church.

With all due respect, I believe that you are confusing the ICEL with the ELLC. In 2001, the Catholic Church under Vatican instruction, Liturgiam Authenticam, left behind the ELLC and it’s “translations.”

 

[John_Hiner]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

I would like to express my gratitude for this thread. The discussion has led me to a fresh appreciation of a meaning of the last two lines of the Our Father. Translating from the Greek, I might render the lines:

καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ,
as
“And do not take us into temptation
But gather us to Yourself and away from the Evil One.”

(A translation note: I add the element of “toward Yourself” because of the middle voice of the verb “ῥῦσαι.” This is not directly reflected in the Latin or the English, but is consistent with both, when the idea is brought to the translations from the Greek.)

This discussion has helped clarify for me that these two lines are not primarily the prayer of weak children who fear the test and are worried that they will fail, if made to face it, or a plea to be saved from the powerful Devil or overpowering evil, which would otherwise take them away.

Rather, it is the prayer of children who have considered the alternatives and have chosen God. This “positive” meaning is equivalent to saying, we do not need to be shown any more of the alternatives, Lord, we have chosen for You and against the Devil; we do not need to listen to any more of the Devil’s offers; we have made up our minds.

In this light, one can see how Christ Himself was able to join in this prayer.

I submit that this is a fair (and perhaps the primary) sense of the customary English version:

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Thanks for the thread.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[AngloCatholic1]

As everyone can see from my “join date”, I’m very new to this forum. I am seriously contemplating a move to the Catholic church, and that’s why I’m here…

Having said that, please just allow me to take this opportunity to say that this thread was very enjoyable and informative! I’d like to thank PePPar for starting it (good question), for Copland3’s reference to the Catechism (beautiful), and for John Hiner’s contributions (very insightful and illuminating!).

It’s threads like these that make me realize that I may already be a convinced Catholic!

 

[Joysong]

Nice answers, everyone. I would like to share another good insight from St. Teresa of Avil from Way of Perfection.

Those whom they fear, and fear rightly, and from whom they always beg the Lord to deliver them, are enemies who are treacherous, devils who transform themselves and come and visit them in the disguise of angels of light. The soul fails to recognize them until they have done it a great deal of harm; they suck our life-blood and put an end to our virtues and we go on yielding to temptation without knowing it. From these enemies let us pray the Lord often, in the Paternoster, to deliver us: may He not allow us to run into temptations which deceive us; may their poison be detected; and may light and truth not be hidden from us. How rightly does our good Master teach us to pray for this and pray for it in our name!