The Our Father.....repetitive prayer or supposed to be a one time?

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rossum said:
Matthew is condemning “useless repetitions”. It those Protestants think that prayer to God is useless, then that is their problem.
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It’s a fun thread when a Buddhist gets into refuting fundamentalist Protestant claims. 😉
 
Several of rossum’s posts in these forums have actually had me standing back and trying to take an objective look at my own faith on occasion as well .

And I also think that reading into this sentiment here :
rossum said:
In . . .

Matthew is condemning “useless repetitions”. It those Protestants think that prayer to God is useless, then that is their problem.

rossum
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. . . we can be led to conclude that the people the OP is talking about are trying to tell him how to pray . It has always amazed me how people think they know what is going on in someone else’s mind and heart ( that comment is meant to preclude saints such as* St. Padre Pio *and *St. André Bessette * who had the actual charism of reading people’s hearts).

Most of the time, I can’t even tell with 100% accuracy what’s going on in my own mind - let alone someone else’s . So how can I criticize the way they pray ?

1 Samuel 16:7
Not as man sees does God see, because man sees the appearance but the LORD looks into the heart."
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The admonition against vain repetitions was aimed primarily at some of the folk who worshiped false gods such as Baal. They would literally babble nonsensical words and versions of a false god’s name in a vain effort to get the god to respond to them. 1 Kings 18 has an example of this sort of thing.

Clearly, repeating an Our Father or a Hail Mary is anything but vain. They are beautiful prayers, laden with meaning and respect, and not simply a noise to try and get God’s attention. There’s nothing wrong with praying from the heart, but I find often that, if my heart is conflicted or troubled about something and I just can’t seem to find the right words myself, the prayers contained in the Rosary and elsewhere express my desire, hurt, hope, and all else just as well.
 
When I was evangelical, my prayer life was short and sweet. It consisted mainly of the various thoughts or requests inside my head. In a sense, I was talking to myself more than to God. When I returned to the Church of my youth, I had to learn a different way of praying.
Why is exercise so hard and downright painful? Because my body naturally would rather be sitting back in an easy chair getting fat.
Well, the same goes with the brain and spirit. It is actually quite Biblical. Pre-composed prayers help train our minds to consentrate. My brain, like my body, would rather be sitting in a mental easy chair getting fat. The pre-composed repitition of the rosary breaks through that. It helps in training my brain so, when I do pray with my own words, I now have a context to do it with.
But here is something even more amazing. The more I exercise physically, the healthier I am, exercise isn’t dragging, I become energized. The same with the rosary. The more I pray, the more energized I become, mentally and spiritually.
 
JustaServant said:
When I was evangelical, my prayer life was short and sweet. It consisted mainly of the various thoughts or requests inside my head. In a sense, I was talking to myself more than to God. When I returned to the Church of my youth, I had to learn a different way of praying.
Why is exercise so hard and downright painful? Because my body naturally would rather be sitting back in an easy chair getting fat.
Well, the same goes with the brain and spirit. It is actually quite Biblical. Pre-composed prayers help train our minds to consentrate. My brain, like my body, would rather be sitting in a mental easy chair getting fat. The pre-composed repitition of the rosary breaks through that. It helps in training my brain so, when I do pray with my own words, I now have a context to do it with.
But here is something even more amazing. The more I exercise physically, the healthier I am, exercise isn’t dragging, I become energized. The same with the rosary. The more I pray, the more energized I become, mentally and spiritually.
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I like the comparison to exercise. In today’s U.S. society, with it’s emphasis on health, diet and exercise, I think that such analogies can be very useful.
Thanks for bringing that in…

Peace
James
 
Acts 2:42

And they devoted themselves to the Apostle’s teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

I think this suggests there are certain prayers retained for repeating. Specifically in Mass.

But I do grow a little tired of Catholics who rely too much on written prayers. Because I have seen when some are uncomfortable praying in their own words, then. But the more important thing is that they are praying and meaning what they are saying. Sometimes this is much more than I can say for myself.

The Our Father is a very special prayer meant to repeat in memory of Jesus and His High Priesthood. IMO

Peace
Michael
 
rcwitness said:
But I do grow a little tired of Catholics who rely too much on written prayers. Because I have seen when some are uncomfortable praying in their own words, then. But the more important thing is that they are praying and meaning what they are saying. Sometimes this is much more than I can say for myself.
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Sometimes people have difficulty praying out loud. I was Protestant for way more years than I’ve been Catholic at this point, and I’ve never been comfortable making up a prayer to say out loud (which in the Protestant circles I was in was considered an important skill). It usually came out like this: “Ummm… Dear God… thank you for this day and um…thank you for your goodness…and um and…help us to um follow your word inJesusnameamen”
The memorized prayers were such a blessing to me because so often I just have no words to express what I want to say.
 
Its not the “Our Father” that most see as not being a proper prayer, it is that it seems to be more a formulaic, rote prayer that is not always from the heart, because it becomes memorized. And Jesus did teach about repetitious prayer in the verse right above the “Our Father” passage:

Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The disciples were not used to addressing God personally don’t forget (Christ had not yet died, so the Jewish priests still performed the sacrifices, were the only ones allowed into the Holy of Holies etc…), and so Jesus gave the disciples a starting point.
 
MartinJordan said:
I heard many non-Catholics tell me that repetitive prayer is wrong. Now, if Jesus taught us how to pray the “Our Father” and for all intents and purposes it was Jesus HIMSELF instructing the faithful to do so with those exact words (certainly not exactly from our own heart but clearly taught by Jesus), how can repetitive prayer be wrong?

MJ
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That is an ANTI-biblical understanding:

Repetition
“Forbidden by Mt.6: 7” See Psalm 136: Repeats “For His Kindness endures forever” 26 TIMES

And this is just one example.

Prayers is a means of grace.

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you; that our God would make you worthy of his vocation, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness and the work of faith in power;

2 Luke 18:1
And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint:thumbsup:
 
Daizies said:
Sometimes people have difficulty praying out loud. I was Protestant for way more years than I’ve been Catholic at this point, and I’ve never been comfortable making up a prayer to say out loud (which in the Protestant circles I was in was considered an important skill). It usually came out like this: “Ummm… Dear God… thank you for this day and um…thank you for your goodness…and um and…help us to um follow your word inJesusnameamen”
The memorized prayers were such a blessing to me because so often I just have no words to express what I want to say.
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Agreed. I have often heard prayers from some of my Methodist friends that go something like:

“We just thank you, Father God, for all you’ve done for us, and Father God, we just want to do Your will, and know that You love us, Father God, and that we become the people that You, Father God, mean for us to be…”…and so on and so on.

Nothing wrong specifically with the prayer, but these same friends tend to look down their nose at the repetition of prayers during a Rosary. I find it to be somewhat laughable, since what they’re doing isn’t actually very far removed from how the pagans babbled the name of their gods over and over again.

Not only that, but having to strive to find words for a group on the fly that way seems to be lauded as a skill in some of those circles, and if you don’t have a natural talent for making your own words flow smoothly, you’re somehow “not praying as effectively” as others who can.

Folderol and poppycock, says I. I’ll take the beauty and meaning of the Our Father, Hail Mary or Glory Be anytime, especially when my own fumbling words just aren’t up to the task.
 
Arent there angels repeating praise over and over for eternity?

Glory glory glory is the lord God almighty
 
Seriously?! It says right in the verse I gave…do NOT use vain repetitions…how much clearer can Christ get? If you don’t want to speak from the heart to God, that is fine, but if you are going to use the prayer that Christ gives as an example to the disciples…pray it ONCE. You are not to sit there and just repeat the same “Our Father” prayer over and over again within a couple minutes. I’m not saying don’t ever repeat the prayer that Jesus Christ himself gave us, just saying that there are also instructions how to pray, before he even gets to the disciples prayer. Don’t use repetitions, because that is what the heathen do. You see Orthodox Jews at the Wailing Wall praying repetitiously, and nodding consistently toward the wall. You see the repetitious prayers of Muslims on their prayer mats, up and down, up and down, same prayer repeated… God didn’t make a bunch of robots, he wants to for us to come to us with OUR OWN prayers and petitions too. That is why Jesus warns against repetitious prayer. And he did not give it to discipline them or as a “punishment”. When I pray for forgiveness, I say “I” and “me”, because I have sinned. I don’t generalize and say forgive “us”… if I am the only one who has made a specific transgression than there is no “us” or “our”.
 
cuddlz24 said:
Seriously?! It says right in the verse I gave…do NOT use vain repetitions…how much clearer can Christ get? If you don’t want to speak from the heart to God, that is fine, but if you are going to use the prayer that Christ gives as an example to the disciples…pray it ONCE. You are not to sit there and just repeat the same “Our Father” prayer over and over again within a couple minutes. I’m not saying don’t ever repeat the prayer that Jesus Christ himself gave us, just saying that there are also instructions how to pray, before he even gets to the disciples prayer. Don’t use repetitions, because that is what the heathen do. You see Orthodox Jews at the Wailing Wall praying repetitiously, and nodding consistently toward the wall. You see the repetitious prayers of Muslims on their prayer mats, up and down, up and down, same prayer repeated… God didn’t make a bunch of robots, he wants to for us to come to us with OUR OWN prayers and petitions too. That is why Jesus warns against repetitious prayer. And he did not give it to discipline them or as a “punishment”. When I pray for forgiveness, I say “I” and “me”, because I have sinned. I don’t generalize and say forgive “us”… if I am the only one who has made a specific transgression than there is no “us” or “our”.
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Your objection has already been addressed:
Lochias said:
The admonition against vain repetitions was aimed primarily at some of the folk who worshiped false gods such as Baal. They would literally babble nonsensical words and versions of a false god’s name in a vain effort to get the god to respond to them. 1 Kings 18 has an example of this sort of thing.

Clearly, repeating an Our Father or a Hail Mary is anything but vain. They are beautiful prayers, laden with meaning and respect, and not simply a noise to try and get God’s attention. There’s nothing wrong with praying from the heart, but I find often that, if my heart is conflicted or troubled about something and I just can’t seem to find the right words myself, the prayers contained in the Rosary and elsewhere express my desire, hurt, hope, and all else just as well.
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rossum said:
In this context the word “vain” means “useless”. It is the usage in the phrase, “all in vain”, meaning “all useless”.

The meaning of some English words has altered since the KJV was translated.

Matthew is condemning “useless repetitions”. It those Protestants think that prayer to God is useless, then that is their problem.

rossum
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cuddlz24 said:
And he did not give it to discipline them or as a “punishment”. When I pray for forgiveness, I say “I” and “me”, because I have sinned. I don’t generalize and say forgive “us”… if I am the only one who has made a specific transgression than there is no “us” or “our”.
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Really? That’s funny because Jesus tells the Disciples from the outset He is giving the prayer because they do not “pray as they ought”.
Also, if you replace ‘we’ with ‘I’, you are changing the words of Christ (not a very bright thing to do). Are you somehow separated from God’s Church that you must use everything in the personal pronoun?
Is it just “Jesus and me”?
Or Jesus and us?
 
Oh, I get it, so its not ok for some to repeat prayers, which in of itself is useless, God heard you the first time! Lol…but it’s ok for others to repeat prayers over and over again.

And it doesn’t always matter who was being addressed. Then I can say, since Paul wrote to the Ephesians, I don’t have to obey any precepts or commands, or recognize any doctrine in the letter, because by your logic, it is written to the Ephesians, and not me.
Furthermore where in that passage does it say he was talking to followers of Baal?? Luke 11:1 records that it is the disciples who asked Jesus how to pray. In Matthew 5, he was talking to the disciples for the whole of the chapter. How do we know?

Matt 5:1-2 - And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his DISCIPLES came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught THEM saying,…

And, whoa, the Bible talks about Jesus teaching the disciples to address/pray to the Father. He NEVER taught them to address or pray to Mary, so where did your inclusion of that heresy come from? That’s just biblical heresy, and I’m not talking about that in this thread.

And Rossum, how do you make a leap of “illogic” to go from Jesus teaching about “useless repetition” during prayer…and “Protestants (which I am not) who think that prayer to God is useless”??? JESUS taught that repetitious prayer was vain/pointless/useless (whatever synonym you want to use), lol, it wasn’t me!
 
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