The pacwa vs martin debate

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6glargento

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i just got finished listening to the pacwa/martin debate over mary and i think that fr mitch kinda got overwelmed with 3 ppl going against him, although he held his own fairly well. i remember tim staples saying in “suprised by truth” that it was this debate which caused him to look at catholicism in a new light. i know that there entire debate over catholic theology was about 5 hrs long, and i only listened to the 1hr discussion on mary but some of the things i heard sort of confused me. martin quoted church fathers who seemed to explicitly teach that mary sinned and that there should be no feast days for mary, does anyone have a refutation of these particular arguments?
 
What are you referring to? Who are Pacwa and Martin? Do you have any links?
 
6glargento said:
i just got finished listening to the pacwa/martin debate over mary and i think that fr mitch kinda got overwelmed with 3 ppl going against him, although he held his own fairly well. i remember tim staples saying in “suprised by truth” that it was this debate which caused him to look at catholicism in a new light. i know that there entire debate over catholic theology was about 5 hrs long, and i only listened to the 1hr discussion on mary but some of the things i heard sort of confused me. martin quoted church fathers who seemed to explicitly teach that mary sinned and that there should be no feast days for mary, does anyone have a refutation of these particular arguments?
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Martin took the worlds of the ECF out of context. They also made statements that Mary is the virgin.
“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ’s parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,’ and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;’ who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,–that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).
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“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,’ and not Behold you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.’ What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?” Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).
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“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).
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If you want to take a closer look go to scripturecatholic.com
 
largent << martin quoted church fathers who seemed to explicitly teach that mary sinned and that there should be no feast days for mary, does anyone have a refutation of these particular arguments? >>

Yeah I have the whole debate, originally 4 videotapes, total about 5 hours in length. The Mary debate was just 2 or 3 programs so about 1 hour. Dr. Martin does not quote the most explicit statements from the Fathers, he quotes things like “it is for the Immaculate Lamb only to have no sin…” etc. which doesn’t imply anything necessarily about the Virgin Mary.

However, there were some early Fathers or early Church writers that had doubts about Mary’s complete sinlessness, even though they saw her as especially holy. For example, Origen (who later was seen as heretical on various points), and St. John Chrysostom in the east.

My article on Immaculate Conception, the Bible, and the Fathers lays it out. Martin is probably getting his list of quotes from a secondary source, I doubt he went through all those Fathers in their original context. But JND Kelly and the patristic experts certainly have.

See also Development of the Immaculate Conception by Apolonio which covers some eastern Fathers.

Phil P
 
Shoot. I was hoping it was Fr. Facwa vs. Malachi Martin over Martin’s view of the Jesuits. Now THAT would be a debate.

John
 
John_Higgins said:
Shoot. I was hoping it was Fr. Facwa vs. Malachi Martin over Martin’s view of the Jesuits. Now THAT would be a debate.

John
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I’m reading one of Malachi Martin’s books (Hostage) currently, and I love Fr. Pacwa on EWTN. I’m curious as to why you think you’d enjoy their debating so much? I know Martin left the priesthood after some twenty years of being a Jesuit, but he didn’t leave the Church or anything.
 
6glargento said:
sorry i was refering to the debate between Fr. Mitch Pacwa and Walter Martin in 1987

johnankerberg.org/catalog/roman-catholicism.html
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Walter Martin, “The Bible Answer Man” and founder of the Christian Research Institue, died shortly after those debates. He and Fr. Pacwa were good friends. In fact, Fr. Mitch said that Walter died while praying on his knees. Had he lived, he might have been brought into the Church, for no one steeped in history can remain Protestant.

Ankerberg is a pseudo-intellectual who thinks he’s got it all figured out. If one visits his web site, one can easily see it’s loaded with anti-Catholic propaganda.
 
Manfred said:
Ankerberg is a pseudo-intellectual who thinks he’s got it all figured out. If one visits his web site, one can easily see it’s loaded with anti-Catholic propaganda.
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I’ve seen his show on TBN a couple times. He’s got bad hair to boot! 😛

One of his shows attacked the Catholic teachings on Mary, and he showed a snippet of the Martin/Pacwa debate where Martin said he needed no other mediator than Jesus Christ as an attempt to “prove” the Protestant position.
 
I have the “Best of Roman Catholicism” debate here. Years ago I ordered it from Ankerberg,

I called them and complained about the tape because it seemed that it had been edited and that Fr. Pacwa could have given some better responses.

They told me that indeed the tape had been edited and that the parts edited out made no difference in their opinion on the matter.

They also told me that Martin had died and that Fr. Pacwa attended his funeral- and indeed they were good friends.

Pray for the soul of Mr. Martin. He was a good man and a good debater. I just wish the video was not done so that Ankerbergies had the final answer to all parts.

And indeed - stay away from Ankerberg. They are very Anti-Catholic.

Ken
 
kleary said:
I have the “Best of Roman Catholicism” debate here. Years ago I ordered it from Ankerberg,

I called them and complained about the tape because it seemed that it had been edited and that Fr. Pacwa could have given some better responses.

They told me that indeed the tape had been edited and that the parts edited out made no difference in their opinion on the matter.

They also told me that Martin had died and that Fr. Pacwa attended his funeral- and indeed they were good friends.

Pray for the soul of Mr. Martin. He was a good man and a good debater. I just wish the video was not done so that Ankerbergies had the final answer to all parts.

And indeed - stay away from Ankerberg. They are very Anti-Catholic.

Ken
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Fr Pacwa’s debates on the Ankerberg program are discussed in Karl Keating’s book, The Usual Suspects. I don’t have this book anymore, but here is information about it:

amazon.com/Usual-Suspects-Answering-Anti-Catholic-Fundamentalists/dp/0898707730

There may have been a series of debates on Ankerberg’s program about the Catholic Church. I remember seeing one about how we are saved. I did not think Fr Pacwa performed too well in this debate either. At the time I saw this debate, I had never heard of EWTN or Fr Pacwa, but I thought he could have defended the Church better. Since reading Keating’s book, I now know that this debate was edited, and I am sure it was not edited in Fr Pacwa’s favor.

You really cannot edit a debate unilaterally and maintain fairness. A debate must be shown in its entirety, or edited with the approval of both sides. This was not done in the Ankerberg debates.
 
kleary said:
They also told me that Martin had died and that Fr. Pacwa attended his funeral- and indeed they were good friends.

Pray for the soul of Mr. Martin. He was a good man and a good debater. I just wish the video was not done so that Ankerbergies had the final answer to all parts.
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Well, Mr Martin is a Catholic now…regardless of where he spends his eternity… 👍
 
I was flipping channels last night and chanced upon the Mary debate on the local protestant channel. I was curious about it and what others thought (I’ve read the responses here). It was only perhaps 10 minutes of it and then they were selling that along with a host of others. I didn’t want to support ankerberg and buy them from him. Does Father sell them anywhere? Does he have a website?
 
For those who don’t already know… Fr. Malachi Martin was granted a full and legal dispensation from his Jesuit vows except for chastity and given a perpetual celebret to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in private.

There were scurrilous rumours spread about Fr Martin which were later corrected by the former Vicar General of the Jesuits, Father Vincent O’Keefe, S.J.

williamhkennedy.com/articles/highrankMM.html
 
Eileen_T said:
For those who don’t already know… Fr. Malachi Martin was granted a full and legal dispensation from his Jesuit vows except for chastity and given a perpetual celebret to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in private.

There were scurrilous rumours spread about Fr Martin which were later corrected by the former Vicar General of the Jesuits, Father Vincent O’Keefe, S.J.

williamhkennedy.com/articles/highrankMM.html
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I am wondering about something I read today about Fr. Martin. It was about Pope JP II who supposedly was a new world order hopeful who sat on a chair in a public mass with a clearly visible up side down cross carved into it. The article was very disturbing and led to another and another in which even the Cross he chose for himself was taken into question. It was called the twisted cross and was said to be a sign to new agers and masons that the Illuminati was in control of the Vatican. I know this is all a load of you know what, but how can I find facts to dispute these claims. There are writings from JP II, and the current Pope that seem to suggest they are all for the New World Order which is supposed to be a plan of the rich to take full power away from the rest of the world. What do you think about this stuff? This priest you mentioned was implicated in these many articles. I appreciate your time. Peace.
 
It would help to refute the claims if you provided a link to them. I’m not sure about the twisted cross, but the upside down cross is most likely in honor of St Peter who when martyred asked to be crucified upside down as he didn’t deserve to die the way his Savior did.

It is very likely that the conspiracy, Illuminati and NWO overtones are taken from Chick tracts or the works of professional anti-Catholics like Boetner (sp?).

Eric
 
I wasn’t sure if copy/pasting was allowed. Here is one link…cephasministry.com/world_pope_black_magick.html
Here is another…cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1359.cfm I hope this is easy to dispell, because quite frankly, I have heard of the New World Order for a long time and always as an evil that will be used against the Christians in the world…Then, to see this being applied to the Pope’s, really just unnerved me. I am not sophisticated enough to argue this knowledgeably, so I am confused by it. It is all very convincing. Thanks, for your help, my soul is unsettled and that is a very bad feeling. Peace to you.
 
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