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Cathdefender
Guest
Can anyone here, Catholic and non-Catholic find any beauty of suffering?
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reen12
Guest
quote: Cathdefender
Can beauty result from the willing
acceptance of suffering, that cannot
be ameliorated, then, yes, beauty
can be seen - in the beauty of soul
that accepts this, as all else, from
the hand of God.
There is an Hasidic story that speaks
to this. It concerns Reb Zusia, who
was known as the Fool of God.
quote: reen12, from another forum
If the question were posed, as:
Can beauty result from the willing
acceptance of suffering, that cannot
be ameliorated, then, yes, beauty
can be seen - in the beauty of soul
that accepts this, as all else, from
the hand of God.
There is an Hasidic story that speaks
to this. It concerns Reb Zusia, who
was known as the Fool of God.
quote: reen12, from another forum
reen12
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reen12
Guest
quote: Cathdefender
God enables us to sanctify loss, pain, hurt, deprivation,
limitation, loneliness, being misunderstood…
Where the soul unites it’s own suffering, with that of Christ, in His Passion.
Redemptive suffering may gain many gifts of grace,
as the soul unites with Christ, in the salvation of human beings.
There is great beauty in this. [It is, in a way, like laying down one’s life, for another.]
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15
A friend of C.S. Lewis once said to him:
Sometimes, God has us build the altar here -
so that the fire will come down over there.
The ‘altar’ built - by redemptive suffering - may be
the reality that brings the fire of God’s grace
to the heart of another - one whom we may
never know, this side of heaven.
reen12
There is, as well - the reality of ‘redemptive suffering.’
God enables us to sanctify loss, pain, hurt, deprivation,
limitation, loneliness, being misunderstood…
Where the soul unites it’s own suffering, with that of Christ, in His Passion.
Redemptive suffering may gain many gifts of grace,
as the soul unites with Christ, in the salvation of human beings.
There is great beauty in this. [It is, in a way, like laying down one’s life, for another.]
No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15
A friend of C.S. Lewis once said to him:
Sometimes, God has us build the altar here -
so that the fire will come down over there.
The ‘altar’ built - by redemptive suffering - may be
the reality that brings the fire of God’s grace
to the heart of another - one whom we may
never know, this side of heaven.
reen12
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GladCatholic
Guest
I think I can (at least sometimes). When I think of Christ’s suffering for us and think of Him on that cross and everything he endured prior to His Crucifixion, I see the beauty in that suffering. So the few, and I mean really, really few (can probably count it on one or two fingers) that I’ve been able to suffer and do it FOR Him, seemed like beautiful moments for me. These were pains inflicted on me by someone who is supposed to love me.
Glad
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ralphinal
Guest
Redemptive suffering is, to me, one of the most beautiful teachings that the Catholic Church has.
I just have to remmember when I suffer not to complain but to offer it up.
I just have to remmember when I suffer not to complain but to offer it up.
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JOL
Guest
Do you think this happens before death - - or in the dying process?
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reen12
Guest
quote: ralphinal
In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness… John 1
“Behold, I make all things new.” Rev.21: 5
That suffering now had great meaning, that suffering might now be
sanctified, became part of ‘making all things new.’
reen12
It sheds the light of heaven - on the mystery of suffering.
In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness… John 1
“Behold, I make all things new.” Rev.21: 5
That suffering now had great meaning, that suffering might now be
sanctified, became part of ‘making all things new.’
reen12
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rick43235
Guest
As one who is going through (and struggling with) the conversion process, I have never heard this term before. What is “redemptive suffering” and how does one “offer it up?”Redemptive suffering is, to me, one of the most beautiful teachings that the Catholic Church has.
I just have to remmember when I suffer not to complain but to offer it up.
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reen12
Guest
quote: rick43235
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=246272&highlight=redemptive+suffering
I am hoping that other posters will be able to cite
other threads, that would give you additional information.
reen12
This link may help.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=246272&highlight=redemptive+suffering
I am hoping that other posters will be able to cite
other threads, that would give you additional information.
reen12
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ralphinal
Guest
First, you must see that Christ suffered and died for all men, that those of us who accept him might have eternal life. Easy enough
Now, look at Colossians 1:24.
What was lacking in the suffering in the afflictions of Christ? Well, nothing since it was sufficient for the salvation of the world. But, he suffered and died for my sins, and I can do nothing to help, right?
Wrong. What is lacking is our participation. We can join our own suffering to that of Christ, and we can do so to help our own salvation, or in an even more meritorious act, someone else’s. I can say, “Lord, take this pain and use it to help someone else. Everything that I have is yours, including my suffering. Join this pain with that of Christ that all might be saved.” Note, those are my words. You can say whatever.
AS far as I know, only the Catholic Church teaches this. It gives an answer to why do bad things happen to good people. They happen so that we can participate in the passion of Christ. How wonderful.
I hope that this helps.
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reen12
Guest
quote: rick43235
Pope John Paul II’s letter on salvific suffering.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/hlthwork/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
As raphinal so rightly observes:
quote: raphinal
This is a link to the Vatican website. It contains the text of
Pope John Paul II’s letter on salvific suffering.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/hlthwork/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
As raphinal so rightly observes:
quote: raphinal
reen12
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Jerusha
Guest
Helps me. Thanks
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SIA
Guest
If you are speaking of redemptive suffering, the answer is no. Redemptive suffering is a subsiderary of guilt and is a wrongful unbiblical teaching. When my wife was in the hospital after losing a child and contracting a blood infection, a Catholic priest told her that she was suffering for the sins she committed in life. Our Anglican priest promptly corrected this when he was able to come up to the hospital and speak with her. God doesn’t wish for us to suffer and certainly doesn’t inflict us and torture us with horrible things.
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Swan
Guest
I’m going to comment because I have lately had a great deal of mental anguish. I’m bipolar and have had a constant battle with depression since before I was teemager (back when the majority opinion was that kids didn’t get depressed). Anyway, it runs in my family. My dad killed himself and I’ve come too close for comfort to suicide myself. This is a real roadblock for me when it comes to my personal idea of God. Mental illness, because it inhibits our ability to think/act in a rational manner and by distorting our perception, is particularly problematic because it directly interfers with our spritiuality - our belief, our ability to find goodness and hope, for example. And though I realize that I do not have the capacity to understand God’s plan for us (the ripples on a pond effect, for example) the suffering I experience had led me to a place where I truly question my previous belief in God’s nature. So my answer would be no, but this is purely subjective.
As to the need for us to join our suffering to that of Christ - since he did it I don’t see how we can help out, though I know it was explained in an above post it makes no sense to me. It’s like repainting a house (a real chore) that already has a perfect paint job. Since it’s been done for me, why can’t I just enjoy that fact?
As to the need for us to join our suffering to that of Christ - since he did it I don’t see how we can help out, though I know it was explained in an above post it makes no sense to me. It’s like repainting a house (a real chore) that already has a perfect paint job. Since it’s been done for me, why can’t I just enjoy that fact?
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SIA
Guest
Scripture doesn’t say that God inflicts us with suffering. Go back and read what I posted on that.
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GladCatholic
Guest
I didn’t say scripture says God inflicts suffering and I didn’t say you said that. I addressed both of your statements–first, I’ve been Catholic and I’ve had a lot of exposure to priests and never, ever has one preached from the pulpit, from the dinner table, or in the confessional, that God inflicts suffering–they’ve preached quite the opposite–so I guess you got one of the “goofs,” just like some of the goofs that preach in non-Catholic churches.
Second statement dealt with your idea that redemptive suffering isn’t biblical.
I have no reading comprehension problem.
Glad
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angeljeanr
Guest
As to the need for us to join our suffering to that of Christ - since he did it I don’t see how we can help out, though I know it was explained in an above post it makes no sense to me. It’s like repainting a house (a real chore) that already has a perfect paint job. Since it’s been done for me, why can’t I just enjoy that fact?
Redemptive suffering is a purely voluntary act and it’s an act of love that is done in our effort to be like Christ.
Redemptive suffering is a purely voluntary act and it’s an act of love that is done in our effort to be like Christ.
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ralphinal
Guest
OK, let me try to tie some things together.
First, this can occure at any time in your life, not just while dying.
Second, if you are dealing with an emotional, mental, or psychological disorder, this may not be of use to you. There are other issues involved in those situations that should be dealt with first. This is not a way to cure or mitigate suffering. It is a way to cope with it.
Thrid, suffering does not always come from sin. I cannot say never, because there are times that it does. When it does, however, it is a cause-effect thing. THe easiest example is someone who catches a venerial disease from a prostitute. Most of the time, our suffering comes not from our personal sin but from living in a fallen world.
Forth, and I wish I could claim this as my example, but I heard it from Rosalin Moss, it completes what is lacking in the sacrafice of Christ. That is what St. Paul said. Now for the example. Imagine you are baking a cake for your family. You allow your child to help. Now, can you do it without the child? Yes. Your skills are sufficient to bake the cake. But, in allowing them to help, even if it is just pouring things into the bowl, you are changing the process for them.
At no point did I say that God inflicts us with suffering. At no point is it connected with guilt. At no point did I say that God wants us to suffer. However, we live in a world with suffering. There is no way around that. God could have removed suffering with the Crucifixion, but he did not. Instead he gave us a way to make it holy.
Now, if I may turn the question, if you do not accept redemtive suffering, why do bad things happen to good people?
First, this can occure at any time in your life, not just while dying.
Second, if you are dealing with an emotional, mental, or psychological disorder, this may not be of use to you. There are other issues involved in those situations that should be dealt with first. This is not a way to cure or mitigate suffering. It is a way to cope with it.
Thrid, suffering does not always come from sin. I cannot say never, because there are times that it does. When it does, however, it is a cause-effect thing. THe easiest example is someone who catches a venerial disease from a prostitute. Most of the time, our suffering comes not from our personal sin but from living in a fallen world.
Forth, and I wish I could claim this as my example, but I heard it from Rosalin Moss, it completes what is lacking in the sacrafice of Christ. That is what St. Paul said. Now for the example. Imagine you are baking a cake for your family. You allow your child to help. Now, can you do it without the child? Yes. Your skills are sufficient to bake the cake. But, in allowing them to help, even if it is just pouring things into the bowl, you are changing the process for them.
At no point did I say that God inflicts us with suffering. At no point is it connected with guilt. At no point did I say that God wants us to suffer. However, we live in a world with suffering. There is no way around that. God could have removed suffering with the Crucifixion, but he did not. Instead he gave us a way to make it holy.
Now, if I may turn the question, if you do not accept redemtive suffering, why do bad things happen to good people?
C
Cathdefender
Guest
Don’t believe everything one says here…
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