The Papacy

[Todd_Easton]

JKirkLVNV:

I don’t think that this refers to the Papacy at all. I’ve never seen any Church teaching that indicates that this is a rational for the papal office (which I believe in, but based on the Gospel of Matthew).

Early Christians understood this passage to refer to the Apostles and their successors, the bishops of the Church. St. Irenaeus of Lyon writing about A.D. 189 in his Against Heresies (book IV, chap. 26, para. 5) applies the parallel passage in Matthew (24:45-51) to the bishops of the Church.

However, it seems to me that this passage is especially addressed to a single person, namely to Peter, and his successors, the popes. In Jesus’ response, Jesus says, “who is the wise and faithful servant whom his master will set over his household.” If Jesus was talking about the Apostles in general, instead of Peter in particular, a more appropriate response would have been “who are the wise and faithful servants whom their master will set over his household.”

 

[NotWorthy]

Erich:

d) What would someone who actually knew Isaiah 22:20-25 make of Isaiah’s judgment on Eliakim: “[T]he peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish” (Isaiah 22:25)? Would such a person consider a comparison between Eliakim and the House of David, on the one hand, and Peter and the Church on the other, a favorable omen for either Peter or the Church?

On most of the other points, all I could answer is, “So?” I don’t get why that should make a difference - key vs. keys, bind/loose vs. lock/unlock, etc. Jesus didn’t quote the Scriptures verbatum. He often changed them up to fit His message, while still borrowing from them to bring up as a point of reference.
A prime example would be in Mark, where he talks of the master of the vineyard, “digging, planting, and such” and then changing up the parable.

But to your point of the peg falling down, Eliakim was told that his peg would fall down, and Israel was soon put into exile, the kingship was put in chains or killed. That sounds like a peg being torn down. Jesus, however, says “…And I will be with you always….”, and “…*** the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against you…”.

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So, yes, Jesus is absolutely referencing an office in a kingdom, an office that EVERY kingdom in the Ancient world had. But He is promising that this renewed office would not fail, “and I pray that when you turn back, you will strengthen your brothers…”.

Last, but not least, I am a simple guy. I simply do not understand your point on Clement. The Church had already established that each “Church” was headed by the bishop (read Ignatius’ letters). So when Clement states that the “Church of Rome” has determined this or that, it is the bishop of Rome that has determined it. Read further into the letter, and see that Clement wrote in response to the Church of Corinth’s request. Why would a church ask another church to interfere in their internal affairs, unless they deemed the other church pre-eminent? You’ll find one or two other examples in the first 100-150 years of the Church where someone appeals to Rome to settle a local dispute.

Notworthy

 

[Tabitha773]

1. 
   *]Blessing: You already comprehend that it was a blessing given to Peter in Matt 16, and blessings are very powerful things. In this case, it is given by Jesus who is not only Lord, Master and Saviour, but God Himself. This makes the blessing far more potent, for lack of a more efficient word.
   
   *]Faith of men: The faith of men establishes itself upon knowledge which enters our soul and mind, and also from the spirit given to men so they may see things perceived only through faith. To expect a prooftext and nothing more disparages the gift of faith, the exercise of the mind, and the exercise of the soul. Now let’s talk about belief occuring in men who, as Hebrews belonging to the People of God, were experiencing all this as Hebrews.
   
   *]God’s Foundations: The first foundation we find in Scripture is Adam and his family; the next one of importance in this discussion of the papacy is Abraham (Abram) followed by Isaac and Jacob which gave the world the People of God in the first place. Scripture states in any language you want that Jesus came to establish the household of God. As a matter of interest, what does Ephesians 2: 19 mean in the grand scheme of things? I would truly like to have your take on this.
   
   *]Comprehending Relationship: Rather than p(name removed by moderator)oint at this time the relationship between Peter and God, can you state (or anyone reading this) what relationship exists between Jesus and the Apostles? In my opinion, the overwhelming relationship is less one of Teacher/Rabbi and student but rather Father and son. Jesus taught them, lived with them, provided for them, and regularly showed them the Father. This is paternal relationship far more than teacher.
   
   *]Fatherhood of God: John 6: 38
   For I have come down from Heaven
   Not to do my will
   But to do the will of Him
   Who sent me.
   Respect to anyone in a greater position relates directly in showing the Fatherhood of God. The position, authority and power is shared from the Father to fathers as heads of families. God shares His likeness with fathers which scripture consistently reflects. Paul, too, emphasizes the Father more than 40 times. Paul addresses, as do other writers, familial relationships. The steady nourishment still witnesses to the parent-child reality. This understanding and realization of God’s plan unfolds before us beginning with the book of Genesis and never stops. The good news of the Kingdom of God is the covenant wisely inviting man to be in His family. Beyond all the other Apostles, there are more parallels to the life of Christ in Peter’s life than any other, including John. Yet John shows us in Jn 21 just what God’s will was and is for Peter, and is for sure that among the passages quoted by Catholics, this blessing is one that never died. The fatherhood of God is still present in the one we call PAPA.
   

   ---

   If others choose to believe that the authority of the father died at the cross, after the resurrection, or after pentecost they don’t know Hebrews. If it’s easy to believe the husband to wife relationship in terms of authority, stature, power, responsibility, and giver of blessing to wife and family but it doesn’t exist outside of said relationship, then I’d be questioning your beliefs.
   And that’s all I have to say about that

 

[threadkiller]

awfulthings9:

Given the tone of your other post on the Eucharist, I assume that these explanations will not be sufficient and that you will actually want to see the word “Pope” in Scripture, as well as the actual details of how that office would be passed on. That is understandable and I apologize that nobody had the curtesy to direct you to this passage. You will find the word “Pope” and its definition right next to the word “Trinity”. I can’t remember the book, chapter, and verse right off the top of my head, but its somewhere in the epistles, right after Paul explains the concept of an altar call.

You are so wrong. Everyone knows that the word pope is right next to the word bible, or maybe it’s right next to the word rapture.

 

[threadkiller]

Todd Easton:

After explaining to his disciples the need for faithfulness and watchfulness, Jesus goes on to explain to Peter the need for faithfulness in his stewardship over the Church.
41Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?” 42And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. 44Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. (Luke 12:41-46)
By this passage is shown that Peter is the steward (pope) set over the Church and that there will be such a steward (pope) over the Church until the Lord comes.

In the parable of the workers in the vineyard, the owner of the vineyard, who is Christ, comes back in the evening, which is the second coming, and the first thing He does is to go see His foreman(steward). "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman(steward) ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first’ ". Mat 20.8 NIV. There is only one person on the face of this earth that even remotely resembles the foreman (steward) in this parable and that is the holy Pope in Rome. No matter who or where the Pope is at the Second Coming, if he’s at dinner or at mass or at Castel Gandolfo or even if he’s in his private chapel with his arms rapped around the tabernacle singing a Polish lullabye to our Eucharistic Lord, the first thing Christ will do on His return is to go see the Pope and demand an accounting. LK.16.2.
I guess we can wrap this thread up now.That’s why they call me threadkiller.