The Papal Advisors

[ndeparis88]

So I saw this in an article form my local news,

necn.com/04/13/13/Archbishop-Sean-OMalley-selected-to-be-P/landing.html?blockID=837663&feedID=11106

I think the way they write the story it seems they want to push readers into thinking that pope is putting people into place to change the dogmas of the Church. It may just be me I didn’t watch the video I just read the text, but I was just wondering what people thought about it. I mean I can see in that being the case as far as handling the abuse allegations, but not about the whole other changes they are talking about.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

So I saw this in an article form my local news,

necn.com/04/13/13/Archbishop-Sean-OMalley-selected-to-be-P/landing.html?blockID=837663&feedID=11106

I think the way they write the story it seems they want to push readers into thinking that pope is putting people into place to change the dogmas of the Church. It may just be me I didn’t watch the video I just read the text, but I was just wondering what people thought about it. I mean I can see in that being the case as far as handling the abuse allegations, but not about the whole other changes they are talking about.

As I understand, these people are selected primarily to reform the curia and handle bureaucratic/organizational stuff, and not so much for any doctrinal stuff at all.

 

[ndeparis88]

As I understand, these people are selected primarily to reform the curia and handle bureaucratic/organizational stuff, and not so much for any doctrinal stuff at all.

I see. I just feel that when they write stuff the way they do, people who aren’t religious or who think it’s bad for society will be like “Hey he’s going to modernize the Church, and ordain women priest, and allow gay people to be married and adopt kids! it’s just like I told him he should!”

 

[Joannm]

Also the reporter was wrong saying this is the first time it has happened. John Paul II had such a advisory board when looking to make curial changes.

 

[PJM]

=ndeparis88;10621298]So I saw this in an article form my local news,

necn.com/04/13/13/Archbishop-Sean-OMalley-selected-to-be-P/landing.html?blockID=837663&feedID=11106

I think the way they write the story it seems they want to push readers into thinking that pope is putting people into place to change the dogmas of the Church. It may just be me I didn’t watch the video I just read the text, but I was just wondering what people thought about it. I mean I can see in that being the case as far as handling the abuse allegations, but not about the whole other changes they are talking about.

LET US BE CLEAR AND PRECISE:

DOGMA’S; DOCTIRNES AND THE SACRAMNETS CAN NEVER BE CHAGED. NOT BY THE POPE; NOT BY THE MAGISTERIUM. PERIOD!

The " Investigative-advisers" your speaking of are:

1. All Cardinals not currently part of the Roman Curia
2. Are tasked to investigate the Vatican leaks, and cover-ups [if any?]
3. Are to take the report handed to Pope Francis by Benedict on suspected Corruption and coercion within the ranks of the present Curia; and IF such is found to exist; to relate the info to Pope Francis with recommendations?
4. To identify the guilty [if there are any?]
5. In response to multiple Bishops complaints

IT HAS ZIP; ZERRO NOTTA TO DO WITH CHANGES OF CHURCH DOGMA AND DOCTRINES. AMEN!

 

[Digitonomy]

SACRAMNETS CAN NEVER BE CHAGED

That depends on what you mean. Certainly the sacramental rite for say confession has changed quite a bit from earlier years.

PJM:

The " Investigative-advisers" your speaking of are:
2. Are tasked to investigate the Vatican leaks, and cover-ups [if any?]

1. Are to take the report handed to Pope Francis by Benedict on suspected Corruption and coercion within the ranks of the present Curia; and IF such is found to exist; to relate the info to Pope Francis with recommendations?
2. To identify the guilty [if there are any?]
3. In response to multiple Bishops complaints

Do you have a source for this list of tasks for the new group? My original understanding was that they were primarily there to advise on organizational reform of the curia - certainly the VatiLeaks investigation might point to some problems to be addressed in such a reorganization, but I’m also sure there are many organizational issues that have nothing to do with VatiLeaks, which the group is nonetheless tasked to evaluate. In other coverage, it sounds like the group may be a more general sounding-board the pope may use for many topics, not just reorganization. But your list is the first time I’ve ever heard them described as investigators.

Also the reporter was wrong saying this is the first time it has happened. John Paul II had such a advisory board when looking to make curial changes.

Can you point me to more information on this? I was unaware of it.

 

[PJM]

=Digitonomy;10622252]That depends on what you mean. Certainly the sacramental rite for say confession has changed quite a bit from earlier years.Do you have a source for this list of tasks for the new group? My original understanding was that they were primarily there to advise on organizational reform of the curia - certainly the VatiLeaks investigation might point to some problems to be addressed in such a reorganization, but I’m also sure there are many organizational issues that have nothing to do with VatiLeaks, which the group is nonetheless tasked to evaluate. In other coverage, it sounds like the group may be a more general sounding-board the pope may use for many topics, not just reorganization. But your list is the first time I’ve ever heard them described as investigators.Can you point me to more information on this? I was unaware of it.

Blog: Whispers in the Loggia
Link: whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/

GOOGLE todays 04/14/2013

“Catholic News Agency”

It came off their daily post

 

[godisgood77]

LET US BE CLEAR AND PRECISE:

DOGMA’S; DOCTIRNES AND THE SACRAMNETS CAN NEVER BE CHAGED. NOT BY THE POPE; NOT BY THE MAGISTERIUM. PERIOD!

The " Investigative-advisers" your speaking of are:

1. All Cardinals not currently part of the Roman Curia
2. Are tasked to investigate the Vatican leaks, and cover-ups [if any?]
3. Are to take the report handed to Pope Francis by Benedict on suspected Corruption and coercion within the ranks of the present Curia; and IF such is found to exist; to relate the info to Pope Francis with recommendations?
4. To identify the guilty [if there are any?]
5. In response to multiple Bishops complaints

IT HAS ZIP; ZERRO NOTTA TO DO WITH CHANGES OF CHURCH DOGMA AND DOCTRINES. AMEN!

Just for arguments sake… I think that “Outside The Church There Is No Salvation” was a Dogma that changed, no?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Just for arguments sake… I think that “Outside The Church There Is No Salvation” was a Dogma that changed, no?

no. It was developed in a sense, but not changed.

 

[dans0622]

… Do you have a source for this list of tasks for the new group? My original understanding was that they were primarily there to advise on organizational reform of the curia - certainly the VatiLeaks investigation might point to some problems to be addressed in such a reorganization, but I’m also sure there are many organizational issues that have nothing to do with VatiLeaks, which the group is nonetheless tasked to evaluate. In other coverage, it sounds like the group may be a more general sounding-board the pope may use for many topics, not just reorganization. But your list is the first time I’ve ever heard them described as investigators.

Can you point me to more information on this? I was unaware of it.

Hello,

I, too, never heard about such a wide-ranging mandate for this group. All the news stories say the group is to “advise” the Pope “on governing the Church and reforming the Curia.” As the press release said, the Pope “has established a group of cardinals to advise him in the government of the universal Church and to study a plan for revising the Apostolic Constitution on the Roman Curia, ‘Pastor Bonus.’”
press.catholica.va/news_services/bulletin/news/30794.php?index=30794&po_date=13.04.2013&lang=en

Regarding the comment from “Joannm”–Popes before John Paul II set up a group of advisors–either all the Cardinals and/or a select group or prelates–whenever they undertook a reorganization of the Curia. For John Paul II specifically, see Pastor Bonus, # 6, here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19880628_pastor-bonus-introduction_en.html

Dan

 

[godisgood77]

no. It was developed in a sense, but not changed.

So previously, we had a pretty straight forward statement saying that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Now the Catechism states that salvation is indeed possible outside of the Catholic Church…Unless we have an aversion to the word changed are are using the word developed its synonym, we have a changed the teaching.

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338*

 

[PJM]

=godisgood77;10622674]Just for arguments sake… I think that “Outside The Church There Is No Salvation” was a Dogma that changed, no?

No

Expanded to a POSSIBlTY under narrowly defined conditions; BUT still through the CC, by the merits of Her Goodness and Mercy.

“Only IF NOT by choice or true and complete lack of opportunity” one never had the change to know of and to know God; then God will judge their charity as a POSSIBLE means of salvation.

CCC 780 The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.** Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

 

[otjm]

So I saw this in an article form my local news,

necn.com/04/13/13/Archbishop-Sean-OMalley-selected-to-be-P/landing.html?blockID=837663&feedID=11106

I think the way they write the story it seems they want to push readers into thinking that pope is putting people into place to change the dogmas of the Church. It may just be me I didn’t watch the video I just read the text, but I was just wondering what people thought about it. I mean I can see in that being the case as far as handling the abuse allegations, but not about the whole other changes they are talking about.

Having watched the news commentary, and read the attached notes, I cannot see how you got to an issue about changing dogma; perahps I missed something?

The way they wrote the story certainly seems straightforward - the Pope is looking at bureaucratic changes. Dogmas were not mentioned that I caught - perhaps I missed something?

 

[Genesis315]

There are a bazillion threads on this, but the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church has not changed. You can’t take some statements from the Magisterium in isolation from others. At the same time the famous definitions of this dogma were made, the Church in other acts was also acknowedging ways those apparently “outside” the Church could be saved extraordinarily (such as through the desire for Baptism). The development has been to explain the coherent relationship between these two truths, especialy the means by which those not visibly members of the Church may belong to the Church nonetheless in certain circumstances.

Anyway, as to this commission, as has been mentioned it’s nothing new. For example Pope Paul III established a commission of nine Cardinals to advise him on reforming the Roman bureaucracy, with a special focus on financial abuses.

 

[PJM]

=ndeparis88;10621298]So I saw this in an article form my local news,

necn.com/04/13/13/Archbishop-Sean-OMalley-selected-to-be-P/landing.html?blockID=837663&feedID=11106

I think the way they write the story it seems they want to push readers into thinking that pope is putting people into place to change the dogmas of the Church. It may just be me I didn’t watch the video I just read the text, but I was just wondering what people thought about it. I mean I can see in that being the case as far as handling the abuse allegations, but not about the whole other changes they are talking about.

IGNORANCE is to be ignored when ever possible. This seems to be a Good time to Do just that!