The Papal Coronation and the Papal Oath

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Would anyone like to see the Papal Coronation and the Papal Oath restored…

Also possibly indoors the Sedia Gestatoria (The moveable throne)
Maybe the falda, fanon, Papal Tiara
 
Sam20045 said:
Would anyone like to see the Papal Coronation and the Papal Oath restored…

Also possibly indoors the Sedia Gestatoria (The moveable throne)
Maybe the falda, fanon, Papal Tiara
Click to expand...
It is somewhat debatable whether the Papal Oath ever found a place in more recent centuries.

The falda is extremely inconvenient, and has to be held up by assistants when walking. It looks very impressive if one is seated, or really slowly walking from one place to another (while it’s trailing on the ground – but there’s a trip hazard right there). Otherwise with the assistants holding it up, it doesn’t look dignified, IMHO. With the current Holy Father, tripping is a big concern.

The fanon would be good addition especially since the Pope occasionally wears the “Roman” chasuble when he celebrates Mass publicly.
 
I would like to see these things return, yes.

On an interesting note about the sedia gestatoria… tomorrow the pope will begin to use the platform that HH John Paul II used when he found it difficult to walk. This will be used for the first time by Benedict XVI when he says mass tomorrow at the Vatican.

It’s this thing:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I think it would be quite nice for the pope to use the sedia again. It functions the same as this platform, with the additional bonus of raising the pope up so that he can be seen more clearly by those not near him, which is always a plus, especially in huge churches. The sedia is also more dignified than the platform, which I think is rather unattractive and is too much akin in appearance to a hospital walker, and is just a (very) slightly more well-done rendition of one. Carpeting it doesn’t make it look less hospital-y.

If you care to read it, this: wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/benedict-xvis-new-moves/ is Fr. Zuhlsdorf’s translation of the original Italian article: vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/homepage/news/dettaglio-articolo/articolo/9050/ which explains some background bits.

I think the reason why people reject traditional elements of the Church, as I have also explained in one of the threads on the usage of Latin ( forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8470675&postcount=15 ) is that people are simply afraid of old things. I think this rejection of traditional things is not rooted in any sense of logic.
 
EDIT: Another picture of the sedia “replacement” that will be used by Benedict XVI starting tomorrow. This is a different kind:



and one which I think looks even worse than the carpeted one above. It looks even more hospital walker-y. I really wish the sedia proper would come back.
 
Sam20045 said:
Would anyone like to see the Papal Coronation and the Papal Oath restored…

Also possibly indoors the Sedia Gestatoria (The moveable throne)
Maybe the falda, fanon, Papal Tiara
Click to expand...
I enjoy many traditional practices but I would not want to see any of these brought back.

Benedict has removed the 3-tiered mitre from his coat of arms as he wishes to emphasize the role of the Pope as Bishop.

Having temporal power symbolized (Papal States) doesn’t even make sense given how the role of the Pope is seen currently. It is a spiritual and moral office. The only temporal power the Pope has is over Vatican City.

I really don’t see this hapening at all and I am glad of it.
 
ringil said:
Having temporal power symbolized (Papal States) doesn’t even make sense given how the role of the Pope is seen currently. It is a spiritual and moral office. The only temporal power the Pope has is over Vatican City.
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Exactly. A papal coronation would be nothing but an empty action.

Also, there was never a “papal oath.” Once a candidate accepts the position of pontiff, then he is pontiff. It is not dependent upon him swearing to an oath.
 
Timothysis said:
Exactly. A papal coronation would be nothing but an empty action.

Also, there was never a “papal oath.” Once a candidate accepts the position of pontiff, then he is pontiff. It is not dependent upon him swearing to an oath.
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Um. Yes, there was an oath. Whether or not it had any efficacy is another question.
 
I believe that much of traditional practice is venerable and would certainly add to Catholic worship if further integrated into liturgy and the devotional practice of the wider church.

I do believe that some practices that spoke to the “nobility” of the clerical officials- especially bishops- is not something that needs to be brought back. These practices like the above listed and the “cappa magna” were less theologically based and more atuned to the social aspects of the times they were codified- largely in the later middle ages and the renaisance- where social stratification was integral to how things worked.

The cappa magna for instance, in the high middle ages, was simply a cloak worn by nobility when on a horse- hence the length- to drape over the sides of the animal in a dramatic fashion. Bishops wore this garment to show people that they were members of the noble class and not the peasant or serf class. In the renessaince this garment was codified as a litugical garment so, you see, it’s symbolism is not theological but social.

I am all for keeping traditional practices- which are in the majority of TLM practice- that speak to the theological or moral nature of the priesthood and episcopate but not those that dealt with social stratification, which does not seem consistent with Christ’s message.
 
Many of those are having to do with the time of the temporal rule of the Papal States.
These no longer exists so why?
 
YoungTradCath said:
Um. Yes, there was an oath. Whether or not it had any efficacy is another question.
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Really? Could you provide a source to it? The wikipedia article is a good read on the subject and sums it up thus;

"* The Traditionalist Catholic sources that give the Papal Oath also claim, without citing any source, that all popes from Saint Agatho, who in the Liber Diurnus text is spoken of as already dead, to Pope Paul VI pronounced this text in the course of their coronation ceremonies. The fact that the Liber Diurnus was forgotten for centuries is a difficulty against this account.

The detailed account of the coronation of the nineteenth-century Pope Leo XIII that can be consulted at this site makes no mention of the taking of this particular oath, or of any coronation oath, by the Pope.

In fact, all evidence of papal coronations, including that of Pope Paul VI on 30 June 1963, which was the last, excludes the taking of any oath by the Pope in the course of the ceremony. The claim that Pope Agatho and his immediate successors took the alleged oath at their coronation ceremonies is also evidently false: popes of that time had neither crown nor, in consequence, coronation."*
 
YoungTradCath said:
EDIT: Another picture of the sedia “replacement” that will be used by Benedict XVI starting tomorrow. This is a different kind:

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums...6CanonizzazionedelBeatoJosemaraEscriv_077.jpg

and one which I think looks even worse than the carpeted one above. It looks even more hospital walker-y. I really wish the sedia proper would come back.
Click to expand...
I’m pretty sure that the vehicle in this photo isn’t a “sedia ‘replacement’” such as in post #3 but one of the open-top popemobiles. Pope Benedict famously rode in one at the end of his inauguration Mass and received an updated version in 2007 (see autospectator.com/cars/mercedes-benz/0035569-new-mercedes-benz-popemobile
 
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