The Pastor and the role of the Pastoral Council

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I was reading the document Ecclesiae de Mysterio
“On certain questions regarding the collaboration of the non-ordained faithful in the Sacred ministry of the priest”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Canon 536 of the 1983 Code legislates about parish pastoral councils. It states that “§1. If the diocesan bishop judges it opportune after he has heard the presbyteral council, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish, over which the pastor presides and in which the Christian faithful, together with those who share in pastoral care by virtue of their office in the parish, assist in fostering pastoral activity. §2. A pastoral council possesses a consultative vote only and is governed by the norms established by the diocesan bishop.”

In fact, the 1997 Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest states that, “It is for the Parish Priest to preside at parochial councils. They are to be considered invalid, and hence null and void, any deliberations entered into, (or decisions taken), by a parochial council which has not been presided over by the Parish Priest or which has assembled contrary to his wishes” (Article, 5, § 3).

I was wondering how many parishes have the Church’s understanding of the role of these councils.
 
In the past we had a “Parish Council” who would vote and decide things on their own. Come up with their own Constitution which started, “We the people of ___ parish, etc” The Pastor had almost no role at all. The Presider was a member of the parish council, and not the Pastor according to the Constitution certain counsel member come up with 20 years ago. It was a bottom up type of Church government.

We now have instead a “Pastoral Council” that gives council to the Pastor. The decisions themselves are made by the Pastor. He can even seek counsel with others as needed. The Pastor can even make decisions without getting the approval of his Council. What we have now seems to be what this document is clarifying as a reaction to the abuses of the past 30 or 40 years.
 
Cathryn said:
In the past we had a “Parish Council” who would vote and decide things on their own. Come up with their own Constitution which started, “We the people of ___ parish, etc” The Pastor had almost no role at all. The Presider was a member of the parish council, and not the Pastor according to the Constitution certain counsel member come up with 20 years ago. It was a bottom up type of Church government.

We now have instead a “Pastoral Council” that gives council to the Pastor. The decisions themselves are made by the Pastor. He can even seek counsel with others as needed. The Pastor can even make decisions without getting the approval of his Council. What we have now seems to be what this document is clarifying as a reaction to the abuses of the past 30 or 40 years.
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The idea is a collegial model. Basically it is the laity working hand in hand with the pastor. However the pastor retains the authority to veto a decision or to make a decision without the council for the good of the Church. This is very much how the early Church most likely would have run. (Not calling them parish councils mind you but in the collegial style.) The head of the parish council is the pastor, however on our parish council there is also a chairperson (kind of the go-to person.)
 
Cathryn said:
I was reading the document Ecclesiae de Mysterio
“On certain questions regarding the collaboration of the non-ordained faithful in the Sacred ministry of the priest”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Canon 536 of the 1983 Code legislates about parish pastoral councils. It states that “§1. If the diocesan bishop judges it opportune after he has heard the presbyteral council, a pastoral council is to be established in each parish, over which the pastor presides and in which the Christian faithful, together with those who share in pastoral care by virtue of their office in the parish, assist in fostering pastoral activity. §2. A pastoral council possesses a consultative vote only and is governed by the norms established by the diocesan bishop.”

In fact, the 1997 Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest states that, “It is for the Parish Priest to preside at parochial councils. They are to be considered invalid, and hence null and void, any deliberations entered into, (or decisions taken), by a parochial council which has not been presided over by the Parish Priest or which has assembled contrary to his wishes” (Article, 5, § 3).

I was wondering how many parishes have the Church’s understanding of the role of these councils.
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I go to great pains to point that out each time someone new comes on board. Unfortunately, some pastors like the idea of having the Pastoral Council make all the decisions. That can lead to a problem when they leave and the new Pastor wants to do things the right way. We saw that several years ago in our parish and we have not had a proper Parish Council since, members quit right and left because the Pastor had the audacity to say that the buck stopped with him. (sarcasm alert)

The last pastor set up coordinators for various committees and they are responsible for running the parish – useful, since we presently have no pastor and the administrator doesn’t want to deal with the day to day operation. The problem I can foresee when we get a new pastor is that the last one set it up so that he never even had to see the cheques, three of those coordinators have signing authority and only two need to sign. He wanted to delegate as much authority to them as he could but I can see a new pastor wanting that stopped and another mini war breaking out.
 
Cathryn said:
In the past we had a “Parish Council” who would vote and decide things on their own. Come up with their own Constitution which started, “We the people of ___ parish, etc” The Pastor had almost no role at all. The Presider was a member of the parish council, and not the Pastor according to the Constitution certain counsel member come up with 20 years ago. It was a bottom up type of Church government.

We now have instead a “Pastoral Council” that gives council to the Pastor. The decisions themselves are made by the Pastor. He can even seek counsel with others as needed. The Pastor can even make decisions without getting the approval of his Council. What we have now seems to be what this document is clarifying as a reaction to the abuses of the past 30 or 40 years.
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It sounds like yoursituation has been rectified. I don’t know of any councils that operate as you describe the first one to – outside of the pastor’s authority.
 
Phemie said:
I go to great pains to point that out each time someone new comes on board. Unfortunately, some pastors like the idea of having the Pastoral Council make all the decisions. That can lead to a problem when they leave and the new Pastor wants to do things the right way. We saw that several years ago in our parish and we have not had a proper Parish Council since, members quit right and left because the Pastor had the audacity to say that the buck stopped with him. (sarcasm alert)

The last pastor set up coordinators for various committees and they are responsible for running the parish – useful, since we presently have no pastor and the administrator doesn’t want to deal with the day to day operation. The problem I can foresee when we get a new pastor is that the last one set it up so that he never even had to see the cheques, three of those coordinators have signing authority and only two need to sign. He wanted to delegate as much authority to them as he could but I can see a new pastor wanting that stopped and another mini war breaking out.
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From what I understand with these clarifications from the Vatican, anything “decided” by previous counsels that go against “Mysteria ecclessia” is null and void. A new pastor can disband and choose his own Pastoral Counsel. It is his counsel, not the parish’s counsel. This takes a Pastor who is willing to risk the wrath of certain parishoners who believe it is they who run the parish. My parish for many years was run by the laity, basically about three families. It has taken the last two Pastors to firmly wrestle the control back. According to this document this is common misunderstanding of the role of the laity, and the reason this is being addressed by the Vatican.
 
Isn’t there a difference between a parish council and a pastoral council. In our parish we had a group of laypersons elected to the parish council. They were generally in collaboration with the pastor in deciding business issues, focus of the parish efforts in evangelization etc = for example, assisting n the setting up and management of a Spanish speaking Mass. The Pastoral council consisted of the pastor, assistant pastor, a nun who was a pastoral associate. While they certainly looked at/into the issues of the parish council, they were more concerned with the spiritual development of the parish and parishioners, evangelization in the community, ecumenism, served with interfaith groups, etc.
 
Cathryn said:
In the past we had a “Parish Council” who would vote and decide things on their own. Come up with their own Constitution which started, “We the people of ___ parish, etc” The Pastor had almost no role at all. The Presider was a member of the parish council, and not the Pastor according to the Constitution certain counsel member come up with 20 years ago. It was a bottom up type of Church government.

We now have instead a “Pastoral Council” that gives council to the Pastor. The decisions themselves are made by the Pastor. He can even seek counsel with others as needed. The Pastor can even make decisions without getting the approval of his Council. What we have now seems to be what this document is clarifying as a reaction to the abuses of the past 30 or 40 years.
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The code of canon law has not changed.
 
Ohana said:
Isn’t there a difference between a parish council and a pastoral council. In our parish we had a group of laypersons elected to the parish council. They were generally in collaboration with the pastor in deciding business issues, focus of the parish efforts in evangelization etc = for example, assisting n the setting up and management of a Spanish speaking Mass. The Pastoral council consisted of the pastor, assistant pastor, a nun who was a pastoral associate. While they certainly looked at/into the issues of the parish council, they were more concerned with the spiritual development of the parish and parishioners, evangelization in the community, ecumenism, served with interfaith groups, etc.
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These would both be types of Pastoral Councils according to Church documents. The Church is not recognising “Parish Councils” as separate from what they are discussing.
The Pastor would be the presider of both these councils and is responsible for any decisions made. The same would be a Finance Council.
 
My pastoral council is compromised of my drinking buddies. 😛
 
jmcrae said:
How do your committees report to you - just with written reports that they hand in once a month? Or do you just do everything yourself, without any committees?
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Committees? For God so loved the world that He sent His only beloved Son and not a committee. 😃

The only “committee” that has any real weight is a finance council and even then they are advisory. However, pastors should only place people on that who they trust to actually give good advice.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
Committees? For God so loved the world that He sent His only beloved Son and not a committee. 😃

The only “committee” that has any real weight is a finance council and even then they are advisory. However, pastors should only place people on that who they trust to actually give good advice.
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That’s another one we had problems with. I’m now on the finance council. I keep telling the other members that when we get a new pastor we can say ‘no’ all we want but if he wants to spend money he will, being only really limited by those limits set on him by the diocese. So if the new pastor decides he wants a $1500 complete Oxford English Dictionary (something a former pastor decided he simply had to have at the parish’s expense) there is nothing we can do to stop him. We can only hope the next one has some financial sense.

I know the finance council should consist of at least some people with a financial background but those people in our parish who used to be on the finance council simply gave up when they realized that they weren’t running the show. Our council now consists of a retired single school teacher who’s a tireless fund raiser (she personally raised over $30,000 to build and furnish a school in Guatemala), an insurance agent and moi, whose only financial background is that I managed to keep our family out of debt by not falling for the idea that we ‘needed’ a second vehicle, ‘needed’ to own our own home (until we retired from the military), ‘needed’ Disneyland vacations with our kids, ‘needed’ to work outside the home while the kids were small.
 
Phemie said:
That’s another one we had problems with. I’m now on the finance council. I keep telling the other members that when we get a new pastor we can say ‘no’ all we want but if he wants to spend money he will, being only really limited by those limits set on him by the diocese. So if the new pastor decides he wants a $1500 complete Oxford English Dictionary (something a former pastor decided he simply had to have at the parish’s expense) there is nothing we can do to stop him. We can only hope the next one has some financial sense.
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In such a situation I would hope the parish is at least up to date on all of its bills, especially to the diocese. My diocese is fairly on top of that stuff and I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of that call from the Vicar for Finance.
I know the finance council should consist of at least some people with a financial background but those people in our parish who used to be on the finance council simply gave up when they realized that they weren’t running the show. Our council now consists of a retired single school teacher who’s a tireless fund raiser (she personally raised over $30,000 to build and furnish a school in Guatemala), an insurance agent and moi, whose only financial background is that I managed to keep our family out of debt by not falling for the idea that we ‘needed’ a second vehicle, ‘needed’ to own our own home (until we retired from the military), ‘needed’ Disneyland vacations with our kids, ‘needed’ to work outside the home while the kids were small.
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Its unfortunate that some pastors don’t understand how helpful a good finance council can be. We priests do need to remember that even though we’re in charge that doesn’t mean we’re making good decisions.
 
Phemie said:
That’s another one we had problems with. I’m now on the finance council. I keep telling the other members that when we get a new pastor we can say ‘no’ all we want but if he wants to spend money he will, being only really limited by those limits set on him by the diocese. So if the new pastor decides he wants a $1500 complete Oxford English Dictionary (something a former pastor decided he simply had to have at the parish’s expense) there is nothing we can do to stop him. We can only hope the next one has some financial sense.

I know the finance council should consist of at least some people with a financial background but those people in our parish who used to be on the finance council simply gave up when they realized that they weren’t running the show. Our council now consists of a retired single school teacher who’s a tireless fund raiser (she personally raised over $30,000 to build and furnish a school in Guatemala), an insurance agent and moi, whose only financial background is that I managed to keep our family out of debt by not falling for the idea that we ‘needed’ a second vehicle, ‘needed’ to own our own home (until we retired from the military), ‘needed’ Disneyland vacations with our kids, ‘needed’ to work outside the home while the kids were small.
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I would say considering todays day and age you sound pretty qualified.
 
I was at a parish council meeting, a few years ago, when our new pastor took control of the council. The previous pastor had let the council run completely over him. The new pastor quietly but firmly read Canon 536 and told them what and how the council would be run in the future. In fact, parish voting of council members was stopped. Any new councilors were appointed by the new pastor. It remains so today.

Oh, and we no longer have a lot of weird celebrations. I love it!
 
corsair said:
I was at a parish council meeting, a few years ago, when our new pastor took control of the council. The previous pastor had let the council run completely over him. The new pastor quietly but firmly read Canon 536 and told them what and how the council would be run in the future. In fact, parish voting of council members was stopped. Any new councilors were appointed by the new pastor. It remains so today.

Oh, and we no longer have a lot of weird celebrations. I love it!
Click to expand...
We still vote our parish council in unless there is a position that becomes available mid-year and that is an appointed one. Then it is discerned out of those who were voted in and the existing council who will take which empty positions. This is the last full year of turn over after Katrina - after this it will be staggered so only a third of the council will be replaced every year.
 
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