The Perfect Joy of St. Francis

  • Thread starter Thread starter TrueLight
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
:eek: Br. J.R., I’m bookmarking this thread forever and ever. What a fountain and wealth of information your posts are!

Now, with regards to your reverence for your Holy Father’s Christ-likeness, what do you think of this article:

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

I know it’s very harsh, but what is your opinion of its stance on Francis’ fixation with the wounds, mimicking sending out 12, etc.? Please don’t think I’m trolling; I’ve always wanted a Franciscan to read this and see what they say.
 
:eek: Br. J.R., I’m bookmarking this thread forever and ever. What a fountain and wealth of information your posts are!

Now, with regards to your reverence for your Holy Father’s Christ-likeness, what do you think of this article:

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

I know it’s very harsh, but what is your opinion of its stance on Francis’ fixation with the wounds, mimicking sending out 12, etc.? Please don’t think I’m trolling; I’ve always wanted a Franciscan to read this and see what they say.
Wow.
 
Nothing to add to the thread, except a giant thumbs up and thanks to Br JR. I’ll be copying everything you’ve written, if you don’t mind, and saving it to read and reflect over some more. I’ll also be checking out the book of the thread title.

Thank you - Truelight, for starting the thread, and Br JR for sharing. 🙂
 
That is a good response. I don’t know how to answer other than by that. 😛
All I can say is that the article obviously has an anti-Catholic slant and would hope most Orthodox don’t think that way.

What is the point of comparing two Saints and basically stating which one was more spiritual?

I’d say chuck this article along with other Catholic bashing articles.
 
What I find most interesting is that although they still advocate being contemplative, the past few years Lay Dominicans have been encouraged (and have embraced) being more mission oriented, and embracing the spirit of teaching/preaching. From what you describe Brother, it seems like any Dominican who wasn’t a Priest originally wasn’t supposed to take on that kind of a role.

Whereas because Francis made everyone equal, there was no such evolution.
 
I’ll also be checking out the book of the thread title.
Please do. I just finished it and it left me literally in tears. I shall be reading it over and over, and I believe it is going to change my life.
 
:eek: Br. J.R., I’m bookmarking this thread forever and ever. What a fountain and wealth of information your posts are!

Now, with regards to your reverence for your Holy Father’s Christ-likeness, what do you think of this article:

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx

I’ve always wanted a Franciscan to read this and see what they say.
The biggest problem with this article is that the Eastern and Western Father would roll over in their graves if the saw it. Let’s look at several reasons why they would roll over.

It is contrary to Christian spirituality to compare and contrast saints with the intention of tearing one down.

It is a grave sin against the Holy Spirit to say how God should and do things in each person’s life. This author is saying that the stigmata could not happen to Francis, because “I have these other wonderful saints who were more worthy and they didn’t have such an experience.” We have an author presuming to dictate what the Holy Spirit can and cannot do calling Francis of Assisi arrogant.

His scientific sources are two.

**Guerier includes in his work on Francis the scientific findings of G. Dumas who analysed the process of stigmatisation from a psycho-somatic viewpoint. [5] The following are the conclusions Dumas came to concerning stigmatics:
  1. One must recognize the sincerity of stigmatics and that stigmata appear spontaneously, i.e., they are not self-inflicted wounds, inflicted while the person is in an unconscious state.
  2. The wounds on stigmatics are regarded as phenomena relating to the circulatory system (blood vessels) and are explained as effects of mental suggestion which does affect digestion, circulation of blood, glandular secretions. It can result in cutaneous injuries.
  3. The wounds on stigmatics appear while they are in an ecstatic state which results when one is absorbed in some sort of contemplated powerful image, and surrenders control to that image.
  4. The stigmata appear not only as a result of one’s passive imaging of a wound on the body, but, according to the testimony of stigmatics, when the imaging is accompanied by the active action of the image itself—specifically that of a fiery ray or lance, seen as proceeding from a contemplated wound, which wounds the stigmatic’s body. Often, this happens gradually, and not with the first vision, until the degree eventually is reached where the image contemplated during ecstasy finally gains control over the contemplating subject.**
Dumas is not denying the veracity of stigmatization. He’s trying to offer a hypothetical explanation of the process. He does not say, “It never happened” or “It’s self-induced”. I took this piece right from the article. I don’t see how the writer finds this to be convincing evidence that the stigmata is not a miracle.

His second scientific source is William James. Unfortunately, he does not quote James’ entire book on religious experience. James concludes that they exist and they cannot be explained by science. Instead, he quotes a piece of a paragraph. Everyone who studies Mystical and Ascetical Theology must read William James. He’s required reading in your first year.

**Dumas’ observations recognize factors more than the emotional (which William James considers the source of mysticism) [8] which play an equal, if not greater role in the process of stigmatization. These may be summarized as:
  1. An intense labor of mental imagination,
  2. Suggestion,
  3. Sensual feelings, and,
  4. Physiological manifestations.
The significance of these will be apparent **

William James, as Dumas says, recognize factors that are more than the emotional and which play a greater role in the process of stigmatization. At the end of this book, James concludes that those factors transcend human understanding, but are very real. That’s why we call them miracles.

His concluding statement is very telling. ** The chief cause which obfuscated the path of Francis’ ascetic life may be attributed to the fundamental condition of the Roman Catholic Church in which Francis was nurtured and trained. In the conditions of that time and in the conditions of the Roman Church itself, true humility could not be formed in the consciousness of the people.**

He is saying that it is impossible for Francis to live such an ascetic life (to achieve holiness) because of the sinful state of the Church. No one ever denied the state of the Church. However, his position is that God’s work is handcuffed by sin. The opposite is actually true. God shows his glory, mercy and love more strongly in times of crisis.

Finally, he started with a falsehood. Francis was not canonized because he was a stigmatic, not even because he had worked miracles. There was never a formal study of his life. Pope Gregory IX said that he believed all of the stories about post mortem miracles, because he had personally known Francis and had seen his sanctity with his own eyes. He did not bother to have the veracity of the miracles proven.

The pope proceeded past the study, past the decree of Venerable, past the Beatification, directly to canonization, based on the sanctity of Francis life. A decree of canonization is an infallible decree, because it is a statement of faith. The Church is stating that Francis of Assisi, is without a doubt in heaven, and she commanding God’s people to venerate him. The Church cannot command sin. That’s why we also venerate the Eastern saints who lived before the schism. There is never a need to tear down one saint to elevate another. They’re not in competition, nor do they all receive the same gifts.

This bishop is not even in agreement with other Orthodox bishops who hold up the sanctity of Francis of Assisi.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
What I find most interesting is that although they still advocate being contemplative, the past few years Lay Dominicans have been encouraged (and have embraced) being more mission oriented, and embracing the spirit of teaching/preaching. From what you describe Brother, it seems like any Dominican who wasn’t a Priest originally wasn’t supposed to take on that kind of a role.

Whereas because Francis made everyone equal, there was no such evolution.
You must remember that the Lay Dominicans do not have a rule of life per se. Their way of life is inspired by Dominic and the friars; therefoere, it can evolve without violating a rule or deviating from it.

Look at the bold part. I’m speaking here about friars. The Dominican friars have the priests and the coadjutor brothers. The coadjutor brothers were not preachers. Their vocation was ans is to support the preaching mission of the priests. These brothers built churches, priories, begged for food to feed the community, made sure that their universities were kept running. They did everything form scrubbing floors to administration. Whatever gifts they brought, they put at the service of the community to keep the preaching going. However, they themselves were not the actual prechers.

Among the Franciscans, Francis kept the ordained and the non-ordained united as one body of equals. Those who had the gift of preaching, did so, others did other things. Francis was a preacher. Br. Leo, who was a priest, was never a preacher. Br. Giles who was not a priest, was not a preacher, but did become the superior general after Francis’ death. Br. Anthony of Padua was a preachaer and teacher of theology, but was ordained only three years before his death, after being a friar for 17 years. Br. Bonaventure was ordained, was a preacher and professor, then gets taken out of commission by the General Chapter and is assigned to write the authoritative biography on Francis. Br. Illuminato was not a priest, but was a missionary and preacher. As you can see, the lines between the ordained brothes and the non ordained brothers did not exist in Francis’ family, because they were not needed.

Dominic needed them, because Dominic was starting an order to do priestly ministry. That’ the difference between the two Patriarchs.

Does that help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You must remember that the Lay Dominicans do not have a rule of life per se. Their way of life is inspired by Dominic and the friars; therefoere, it can evolve without violating a rule or deviating from it.

Look at the bold part. I’m speaking here about friars. The Dominican friars have the priests and the coadjutor brothers. The coadjutor brothers were not preachers. Their vocation was ans is to support the preaching mission of the priests. These brothers built churches, priories, begged for food to feed the community, made sure that their universities were kept running. They did everything form scrubbing floors to administration. Whatever gifts they brought, they put at the service of the community to keep the preaching going. However, they themselves were not the actual prechers.

Among the Franciscans, Francis kept the ordained and the non-ordained united as one body of equals. Those who had the gift of preaching, did so, others did other things. Francis was a preacher. Br. Leo, who was a priest, was never a preacher. Br. Giles who was not a priest, was not a preacher, but did become the superior general after Francis’ death. Br. Anthony of Padua was a preachaer and teacher of theology, but was ordained only three years before his death, after being a friar for 17 years. Br. Bonaventure was ordained, was a preacher and professor, then gets taken out of commission by the General Chapter and is assigned to write the authoritative biography on Francis. Br. Illuminato was not a priest, but was a missionary and preacher. As you can see, the lines between the ordained brothes and the non ordained brothers did not exist in Francis’ family, because they were not needed.

Dominic needed them, because Dominic was starting an order to do priestly ministry. That’ the difference between the two Patriarchs.

Does that help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
It helps immeasurably, and makes sense when you explain it in this fashion. Thank you kindly!
 
I was speaking to my spoiled 13 year old about gratitude and mentioned the book. She is reading it now.
 
Would love to hear her (name removed by moderator)ut after she reads the book! Kids that age get right to the point! 😃
 
Would love to hear her (name removed by moderator)ut after she reads the book! Kids that age get right to the point! 😃
Yeah. Pray she doesn’t lose patience. I told her to read the first two chapters then we can talk about it and then the real exciting stuff starts in chapter 3!

I think she’s curious because I said it had me in tears. I’m not sure she ever saw me shed a tear except at funerals, so she’s curious.

Excellent!
 
I would love to keep it going, but there are only a few of us discussing it, apparently.

Would it help if I posted excerpts for those who don’t have or never had the book?
 
I was speaking to my spoiled 13 year old about gratitude and mentioned the book. She is reading it now.
Would love to hear her (name removed by moderator)ut after she reads the book! Kids that age get right to the point! 😃
I was a 5th grader when I read it and it moved me. Timmermans is reader friendly, because he keeps the action moving. Chesterton also wrote a very good book on Francis of Assisi, but it’s too heavy for kids.

Another awesome book on Francis of Assisi Brother Francis of Assisi by Ignacio Larañaga. Br. Ignacio takes you into Francis’ personality. He analyzes this incredible man and he shows you how God fertilizes the soil that will give birth to this man who will be transformed from John Bernadone to Brother Francis of Assisi.

I have always found it fascinating that Francis’ real name is John Baptist. He is very much like John the Baptist. In a world that was lost, confused and on a slippery slope, Francis was a voice in the wilderness who preached penance, conversion and pointed to Jesus.

It’s also interesting to observe how despite everything that is happening in the Church, Francis is always faithful to the pope, the bishop, the clergy and the monks. This is important to us today.

We read about every scandal, every debate and conflict between those who think the Church began at Vatican II and those who think it ended at Vatican II, and we forget that history is like a cycle. The issues change, but human nature stays constant. Francis is able to look past the issues and focus on human nature.

When he and the brothers decide that they need a rule, they are challenged by the fact that they are not welcome by the hierarchy, because they’re a novelty. The Church had its fill of mendicants and penitents. All of them had fallen into heresy.

But Francis trusts in the authority of the bishop and of the pope. He never concerns himself with the debates. The sins of these men, their wisdom or foolishness are irrelevant to him. They are the successors of the Apostles. To him, that is a daunting reality.

When the brothers remind him that they can’t get Jesus to come down and sign their rule, he says that there is one man who can do this. That’s when they decide to take their rule to Rome.

There is some interesting history here. Innocent III was involved in the Crusades. He was a young pope and a military pope. He was also a great administrator who ran the Church like a CEO. He was not an easy person to deal with. He had energy, intelligence and he was a busy man. What moves Innocent is not this man’s rhetoric, but his submissiveness.

Innocent had penitents clamoring for a return to basics. He had cardinals pushing for more hard-line government in the Church. He had emperors and monarchs competing for his power. In other words, he was no stranger to people coming at him from all fronts telling him what was wrong with the Church and the world and how he should fix it.

Brother Francis and his ragamuffins could easily be mistaken for another group who was going to tell the pope how to run the Church. Instead, Francis just asks for permission to live the Gospel. He doesn’t even ask for permission to preach, do any ministry or to help fix things. That’s not in his plans. The only thing in his plans is to unite his brothers as a family. This was the selling point, . . . family.

Francis brought a word into the Papal Court that had been forgotten . . . FAMILY. I think we need to restore that word to our Catholic vocabulary; but we have to live it and believe it as Francis did. What made and makes the Franciscan family bond such a strong one is the Trinity. Francis understood the Trinity as a family. When he reads the scriptures, “Let us create man in our image and likeness,” Francis understands that man has been created to live in God and to commune with God. Man is meant to be the image of the Trinity, where three are one and their love for each other is infinite. Each of us is a distinct person, as are the persons in the Trinity, but we must remain in the one love, as the Apostle John wrote.

Francis approached the hierarchy as one approaches the elders in a family. Every family has saints and sinners, wise men and fools, and angels and demons. However, they are still family. He is not afraid of the hierarchy, nor is he presumptuous toward them. Just as in the Trinity, there is a relational order, so too in the Church there is such an order. Francis operates within that order, completely convinced that if he stays within it, no matter what its problems may be, he will remain in communion with the Trinity.

You may say that he has a holy indifference to the issues of the time. There is something of greater value and he has discovered it: the pearl of great price, to live in a family that loves as the Trinitarian family loves. God will lead the way and point to the solutions. For his part and that of his brothers and later sisters too, we just have to attend to what is before us each day, one day at a time.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I said it somewhere else. This book changed my life. I was in 5th grade when I first read it. I was a Jewish boy. I fell in love with Francis of Assisi. From there, I read everything I could find on him. By the time I was in 10th grade, I was Catholic.

As a non-Christian, I was able to understand why the Church has called Francis of Assisi:
  • The Mirror of Perfection
  • The Alter Christus
  • The Perfect Christian
  • The Perfect Catholic
  • The Seraphic Father
  • The Icon of Christ
Pope Benedict gave him the last title, The Icon of Christ. If we lost the Gospels, we would be able to reconstruct the image of Christ by looking at Francis’ life and teachings.

This has always been an essential part of the Franciscan Spiritual School. Francis taught us that part of conquering ourselves was learning to put up with the difficulties of life. He was very practical. He understood that life is a journey and that perfection is something toward which we strive, but we never achieve it here.

He also understood and taught that even though the world was going to heck in a hand basket, the man of faith did not despair or panic. On the contrary, he grabs on to the Lord, who is his God and his all. He prays, detaches from the issues around him and converts the world by conquering himself first. The sins and failings of the world become the object of his life of prayer and penance, rather than the object of rejection.

Francis lived in a world and a Church very similar to our own. However, his reaction to it was much more like that of Christ than is our reaction. Francis looks at Christ and realizes that Jesus never set out to do battle with the Jewish and Roman leadership of his time. They went looking for him. Jesus set out to preach the Gospel to whomever would listen. Francis sets out to teach the Gospel to whomever would listen. It was that simple. 🙂

He was tempted to try to convert the world, but Clare sets him straight on that. 😃 He accepted that the world would be converted only when we detached from it. Each person, one at a time, detaches from the world around him. This is how we begin to conquer ourselves. Before we realize it, the world is converted.

Francis sets out to teach detachment. This is what he’s saying here. In his admonitions, he wrote the sequel to this statement. He said that you had to be willing to suffer with Christ, because suffering is the only thing that we can truly own. The cross is meant for man. Unless we follow Christ to the cross, we cannot reach the Father.

Instead of complaining about the world, the family, the Church or the nation, etc, you change yourself. You place your trust in God’s hands and the Church. The only thing to which we have a right is to the cross.

Francis leads others to the cross. He refrains from the finger pointing. He did not tolerate finger pointers gladly. That’s because, he has a very different perspective of life. His perspective of life is that of Christ who looks down at the world from the cross, sees its sinfulness, but also sees its innocence. With Christ, Francis says, “Forgive them . . . they know not what they do.” He makes Christ’s passion and words his own.

You’re right. He’s worldview is incredible. He looks at the world through the eyes of the Master.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Br. this is very beutiful and is a life that would be amazing if everyone could acheive it. But one thing bothers me, how can certain people have this type of attitude? Example, I am very close to becoming a police officer, but it would be so hard for me to have this attitude in the line of work when you have some aggressor fighting you. I hope this makes sence?:o What advice could you give?
 
I would love to keep it going, but there are only a few of us discussing it, apparently.

Would it help if I posted excerpts for those who don’t have or never had the book?
I like that idea. I can pull our copy off the shelf and help too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br. this is very beutiful and is a life that would be amazing if everyone could acheive it. But one thing bothers me, how can certain people have this type of attitude? Example, I am very close to becoming a police officer, but it would be so hard for me to have this attitude in the line of work when you have some aggressor fighting you. I hope this makes sence?:o What advice could you give?
Our Holy Father wrote a letter to people in your situation.

TO THE RULERS OF THE PEOPLE.

**To all podestàs, and consuls, judges and governors, in whatever part of the world, and to all others to whom this letter may come, Brother Francis, your little and contemptible servant, wishes health and peace to you.

Consider and see that the day of death draws nigh. I ask you, therefore, with such reverence as I can, not to forget the Lord on account of the cares and solicitudes of this world and not to turn aside from His commandments, for all those who forget Him and decline from His commandments are cursed 1 and they shall be forgotten by Him. And when the day of death comes, all that which they think they have shall be taken away from them. And the wiser and more powerful they may have been in this world, so much the greater torments shall they endure in hell.

Wherefore, I strongly advise you, my lords, to put aside all care and solicitude and to receive readily the most holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in holy commemoration of Him. And cause so great honor to be rendered the Lord by the people committed to you, that every evening it may be announced by a crier or by another sign to the end that praises and thanks shall resound to the Lord God Almighty from all the people. And if you do not do this, know that you are beholden to render an account before your Lord God Jesus Christ on the day of Judgment. Let those who keep this writing with them and observe it know that they are blessed by the Lord God.**

Letters of St. Francis

Read it and then we can talk.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Our Holy Father wrote a letter to people in your situation.

TO THE RULERS OF THE PEOPLE.

**To all podestàs, and consuls, judges and governors, in whatever part of the world, and to all others to whom this letter may come, Brother Francis, your little and contemptible servant, wishes health and peace to you.

Consider and see that the day of death draws nigh. I ask you, therefore, with such reverence as I can, not to forget the Lord on account of the cares and solicitudes of this world and not to turn aside from His commandments, for all those who forget Him and decline from His commandments are cursed 1 and they shall be forgotten by Him. And when the day of death comes, all that which they think they have shall be taken away from them. And the wiser and more powerful they may have been in this world, so much the greater torments shall they endure in hell.

Wherefore, I strongly advise you, my lords, to put aside all care and solicitude and to receive readily the most holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in holy commemoration of Him. And cause so great honor to be rendered the Lord by the people committed to you, that every evening it may be announced by a crier or by another sign to the end that praises and thanks shall resound to the Lord God Almighty from all the people. And if you do not do this, know that you are beholden to render an account before your Lord God Jesus Christ on the day of Judgment. Let those who keep this writing with them and observe it know that they are blessed by the Lord God.**

Letters of St. Francis

Read it and then we can talk.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Wow! I am sorry I ever though St. Francis might be too sensitive for my taste. Only reason I say this is because I always hear the same stuff about him, but no one ever told me about this! That letter really hit me hard especially the part, “and the wiser and more powerful they may have been in this world, so much the greater torments shall they endure in hell.”

I guess one can be in law enforcement and strive to be a a good Catholic and humble while still having the authority that is temporarily given to him. Also, many people talk about Francis’ humility but in this letter he has humility and authority all in one! Thank you so much Br. JR this is helping me a lot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top