The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

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First off, I’m actually a real life full blooded traditional Catholic. I’m not here to start or join in on any radical leftist “christian” debate over the Virgin’s perpetual virginity. Please just stick to the doctrine and its reasoning and basis.

How are we as Catholics to understand Mt. 1:25 “He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.”

or Lk. 2:7 "and she gave birth to her firstborn son.

I understand the teaching that when mentioning Jesus’ brothers it is not in reference to biological brothers, but rather spiritual. But when I read at least these two sections I wonder. In my understanding, “until” would mean that there was an after, and that Joseph waited to have relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. And then you read “firstborn”, to me it seems as if this implies that there are other sons, why didn’t it say only son?
 
Cruikshank_s said:
First off, I’m actually a real life full blooded traditional Catholic. I’m not here to start or join in on any radical leftist “christian” debate over the Virgin’s perpetual virginity. Please just stick to the doctrine and its reasoning and basis.

How are we as Catholics to understand Mt. 1:25 “He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.”

or Lk. 2:7 "and she gave birth to her firstborn son.

I understand the teaching that when mentioning Jesus’ brothers it is not in reference to biological brothers, but rather spiritual. But when I read at least these two sections I wonder. In my understanding, “until” would mean that there was an after, and that Joseph waited to have relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. And then you read “firstborn”, to me it seems as if this implies that there are other sons, why didn’t it say only son?
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Why would you think that. If I say I won’t drink another beer until I die does that mean I’m going to drink beer after I’m dead.
The word “until” does not necessarily have an “after”.
 
ok but when you die there is no earthly after. It’s entirely different. When I die there is no waking up the next day, I have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE to drink another beer. BUT when Mary gave birth to Jesus, there dawned another day, Joseph really did have opportunity to have relations.

And please, I’m not attacking the teaching, I’m trying to get better understanding on it. Please don’t belittle me for asking. Instead of asking why I would think that, just explain what the Church teaches on it.
 
Speaking as a former Jew…

In the Jewish household the firstborn son enjoys pride of place. He is second only to the father in terms of authority and responsibility.

A firstborn son, therefore, would be recognized and distinguished as such immediately upon his birth.
 
2 Samuel 6:22 states that the daughter of Saul (King David’s wife) had no children until her death.

Until is used differently in the Bible than it used in everyday English.
 
I don’t remember where I got this but here you go:

The expression “heos” which is translated from the Greek as “until” is used in the Bible elsewhere:

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus.

Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”. If Fredericks analysis is correct, imagine what that means regarding these passages:

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

According to Fredericks interpretation of “heos” (until) Jesus is with us until the end of the world but after that He is not.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow “up to the point that” she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

According to Fredericks interpretation of “heos” (until), Anna was a widow until she was 84. After that, she was not a widow.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

According to Fredericks interpretation of “heos” (until), Jesus is saying to take a seat at His hand until after He has made until your enemies are your footstool. So, what happens after enemies are your footstool?

Here are more examples of the same “until” which refers to the Virgin in Matt. 1:25:

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert “up to the point of his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

1 Tim. 4:13 - “up to the point that I come,” attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing “until after” I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth “up to the point that” [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.
Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won’t leave Jacob “up to the point that” he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but “up to the point of today” no one knows Moses’ burial place. This does not mean that “they did not know place until today.”

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain “up to the point that” they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

Gen 8:5 And the waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen. The waters diminished “until” the tenth month, but they kept diminishing even after that (or we would all be living on one square foot of land)
 
**How are we as Catholics to understand Mt. 1:25 “He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.”

or Lk. 2:7 "and she gave birth to her firstborn son.**

**The same Greek particle, EOS, is used in Matthew 28:20. “Lo, I am with you always even EOS the end of the world”–and notice, it’s at the end of the same Gospel.

So if EOS implies that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after the birth of Jesus, then in Matthew 28:20, it means that after the end of the world, Jesus will no longer be with us.

Foolish, isn’t it? Well, if it’s foolish in Matthew 28, it’s foolish in Matthew 1.

Nest, “firstborn son” has a technical meaning among Jews even to this day.

The “firstborn son” is still subjected to the law of redemption, which today is performed by the father giving the Cohen 5 silver dollars, which the Cohen gives to charity.

If and only if a woman’s first pregnancy results in the LIVE birth of a MALE child is this son considered “firstborn son” and is subject to the law of redemption.

If her first pregnancy results in a daughter, or is terminated by stillbirth (of either sex), abortion, or miscarriage, and then she has a son, this is NOT considered “firstborn son”.

On the other hand, if a woman has a “firstborn son”, it does not follow that she ever had any other children.

And Matthew, remember, is the most Jewish of the Gospels. In fact some say it was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

I hope this helps.**
 
I think what is NOT in the Bible is just as important as what is in the Bible in this instance.

Now you are talking about devout Jews who traced the lineage of Jesus way, way back…see the first chapter of Matthew. Jesus was a member of the House of David.

If Jesus had a half-brother or half-sister anywhere, that would have been mentioned in the Bible & the lineage would be tracked until the family ended.

Espcially the apostles & first disciples would have tracked this if Jesus had a “biological/DNA” related brother & sister.
 
Thank You all! The examples you gave really cleared it up for me! Thanks especially to Marco Polo and Bpbasilphx, now I have ACTUAL proof and evidence for what I’ve always held true. The translation of eros was really interesting! (and yes it certainly is obvious when you reference it to Jesus being with us until the end of the world) Thanks also for the explanation on the firstborn son, cleared it up just fine!
 
The translation of eros was really interesting!

Be careful the Greek particle is EOS, rendered “until” or “till”.
 
bpbasilphx said:
The translation of eros was really interesting!

Be careful the Greek particle is EOS, rendered “until” or “till”.
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haha yes my bad! I morphed both yours and Marco’s words and mentally formed a random word of my own lol it will be eos from now on!
 
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