The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

[Roblox84]

for the Protestants who are Bible-only believers, where in the Bible did it say that Mary had other children?

It is only a misinterpretation of words I think. They believe that when they talk about the brother and sisters of Christ, they are referring to Mary’s children.

 

[Dokimas]

for the Protestants who are Bible-only believers, where in the Bible did it say that Mary had other children?

Matthew 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

 

[Prieldedi]

Matthew 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

2 Samuel 6:23, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.”

Can you give us the name of Michal’s firstborn child brought forth after her death?

 

[wmscott]

Matthew 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Again with the misinterpretation of Sacred Scripture. You really should do research before throwing out statements with little or no substance. As I have conversed with you on other threads, this seems to be a pattern for you. You are presenting the very same argument that Helvidius and other heretics used. Did you know this?

Objection to Mary’s virginity arises from the use of the word, heos, in Matthew’s gospel.

Mt 1:25

He (Joseph) had no relations with her until (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus.

Foot note to Matthew 1:25 NAB [25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

Objection to the perpetual virginity of Mary arises from the use of the word, prototokos, translated “first-born” in Luke’s gospel.

Lk 2:7

(Mary) gave birth to her firstborn son (prototokos). She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger …

The Greek word prototokos is used of Christ as born of Mary and of Christ’s relationship to His Father (Col 1:25). As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary. The term “first-born” was a legal term under the Mosaic Law (Ex 6:14) referring to the first male child born to Jewish parents regardless of any other children following or not. Hence when Jesus is called the “first-born” of Mary it does not mean that there were second or third-born children.

****Footnotes from the Douay Rheims 25 “Till she brought forth her firstborn son”… From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2. ****

 

[Dokimas]

2 Samuel 6:23, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.”

Can you give us the name of Michal’s firstborn child brought forth after her death?

It’s best to compare apples with apples. Let’s take a look at NT usage of ‘til’ and find out what happens.

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.” Using your logic, did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt?

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny. Using your logic, after the last penny is paid, does the person stay in prision?

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Using your logic, did the disciples never tell about the vision? If not, how do we know about it?

Mt 18:34 “And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until <2193> he should pay all that was due to him.” Using your logic, I the man still being tortured?

Context tells us how to understand this.

If I said I did not (or will not) have sex until I got married. If I’m not married this should mean I haven’t had sex. If I’m married, what can you deduce from my statement as to whether or not I’ll have sex with my wife?

 

[Dokimas]

Again with the misinterpretation of Sacred Scripture. You really should do research before throwing out statements with little or no substance. As I have conversed with you on other threads, this seems to be a pattern for you. You are presenting the very same argument that Helvidius and other heretics used. Did you know this?

Objection to Mary’s virginity arises from the use of the word, heos, in Matthew’s gospel.

Mt 1:25

He (Joseph) had no relations with her until (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
The Greek and the Semitic use of the word heos (until or before) does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated. In this case, there is no necessary implication that Joseph and Mary had sexual contact or other children after Jesus.

Foot note to Matthew 1:25 NAB [25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

Objection to the perpetual virginity of Mary arises from the use of the word, prototokos, translated “first-born” in Luke’s gospel.

Lk 2:7

(Mary) gave birth to her firstborn son (prototokos). She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger …

The Greek word prototokos is used of Christ as born of Mary and of Christ’s relationship to His Father (Col 1:25). As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary. The term “first-born” was a legal term under the Mosaic Law (Ex 6:14) referring to the first male child born to Jewish parents regardless of any other children following or not. Hence when Jesus is called the “first-born” of Mary it does not mean that there were second or third-born children.

****Footnotes from the Douay Rheims 25 “Till she brought forth her firstborn son”… From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2. ****

Good points; glad to see that ‘til’ could imply a later relationship of a normal marriage relationship.​

I’m wondering why the Holy Spirit used the ‘first born’ term. I’m also wondering why He didn’t use ‘only begotten’ as He did speaking of God the Father and Jesus His Only Begotten Son.

 

[Dokimas]

Again with the misinterpretation of Sacred Scripture. You really should do research before throwing out statements with little or no substance. As I have conversed with you on other threads, this seems to be a pattern for you. You are presenting the very same argument that Helvidius and other heretics used. Did you know this?

What statement did I throw out? I just quoted a verse. What interpretation did I offer? I just quoted a verse.​

I have not studied anything from Helvidius. I just looked at the Bible and then compared the word ‘until’ with other NT uses and came to my own conclusion, as wrong (or right) as it may be.

 

[Palaeologos]

It’s best to compare apples with apples. Let’s take a look at NT usage of ‘til’ and find out what happens.

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.” Using your logic, did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt?

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny. Using your logic, after the last penny is paid, does the person stay in prision?

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Using your logic, did the disciples never tell about the vision? If not, how do we know about it?

Mt 18:34 “And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until <2193> he should pay all that was due to him.” Using your logic, I the man still being tortured?

Context tells us how to understand this.

An examination of the Greek text might be helpful here; you didn’t cite your translation, but Bible translations can have a polemic slant (see the Watchtower translation for an extreme example).

You might also consider that the same word can have different meanings in different contexts–as the citation from II Samuel shows.

 

[Dokimas]

An examination of the Greek text might be helpful here; you didn’t cite your translation, but Bible translations can have a polemic slant (see the Watchtower translation for an extreme example).

You might also consider that the same word can have different meanings in different contexts–as the citation from II Samuel shows.

2 Samuel was not written in Greek, as you know.​

The translation doesn’t really matter in this case, IMO. I showed that the same Greek word was used in each case. BTW, I used the New King James Version.​

Care to make specific comments about ‘until’ or ‘til’ in the verses I quoted?

 

[Palaeologos]

2 Samuel was not written in Greek, as you know.​

The translation doesn’t really matter in this case, IMO. I showed that the same Greek word was used in each case. BTW, I used the New King James Version.​

Care to make specific comments about ‘until’ or ‘til’ in the verses I quoted?

Who said II Samuel was written in Greek? If you’re competent to examine the Hebrew text, please do so and enrich us with your findings.

Of course your opinion is that the translation doesn’t matter in this case–you believe that your translation supports your contention. Why would you want to change it? The NKJV is well known to be a conservative evangelical project; I’m sure that when there’s a choice between readings, the reading that is most consistent with an evangelical interpretation will be chosen. This is one reason why an ecumenical translation (such as the RSV) tends to be less plagued by tendentiousness.

The use of the word “until” differs depending on context. I don’t necessarily think your reading is wrong; there is room for disagreement regarding the perpetual virginity of the BVM, in my opinion. But pulling out one Biblical translation, produced by people with a theology that excludes Mary’s perpetual virginity from consideration, and citing a total of five examples taken from the same book is not solid hermeneutical methodology. It’s only slightly more sophisticated than proof-texting.

 

[Dokimas]

Who said II Samuel was written in Greek? If you’re competent to examine the Hebrew text, please do so and enrich us with your findings.

Of course your opinion is that the translation doesn’t matter in this case–you believe that your translation supports your contention. Why would you want to change it? The NKJV is well known to be a conservative evangelical project; I’m sure that when there’s a choice between readings, the reading that is most consistent with an evangelical interpretation will be chosen. This is one reason why an ecumenical translation (such as the RSV) tends to be less plagued by tendentiousness.

The use of the word “until” differs depending on context. I don’t necessarily think your reading is wrong; there is room for disagreement regarding the perpetual virginity of the BVM, in my opinion. But pulling out one Biblical translation, produced by people with a theology that excludes Mary’s perpetual virginity from consideration, and citing a total of five examples taken from the same book is not solid hermeneutical methodology. It’s only slightly more sophisticated than proof-texting.

I believe it was you that wanted me to consider the use of the same word in other verses and reminded me of 2 Samuel. Would you like to help me understand the comparision of the Hebrew ‘until’ and the Greek ‘until’?​

Does a translation matter if it is the Greek word that is sited? What version would you like us to look at? Please post it.​

So you agree with me that context is important. Thank you. That’s why the context of 2 Samuel 6 ‘until’ is vastly different than the context of Matthew 1 ‘until’ so, IMO, they can’t be used together to substanciate a belief.​

Are you telling me that when you tell me I should look at the use of ‘until’ in 2 Samuel 6 and compare that with the Matthew 1:25 use of ‘until’ is more sophisticated than comparing the use of the same Greek word several in the same document?

 

[rbarcia]

There is just so much scripture about Jesus having brothers, you have to really try hard to pretend not to.

Matthew 12
46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”[g]
48He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 13
53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

Mark 3
31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

Luke 8
19Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. 20Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”
21He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
(Note: Luke 1: 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God." - Luke did not call Elizabeth Mary’s sister even though they were cousins, thus putting into question the whole cousin theory)

John 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples.

John 7
Jesus’ brothers said to him, “You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

(John, whose recording the event of Jesus handing Mary to John. Their unbelief could be the reason, or maybe they were too young to care for her. Also FOR EVEN HIS OWN would not be such a shock if they were just cousins).

Acts 1
13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

(Brothers came to Christ after the resurrection)

Old Testament prophecy on Jesus

Psalm 69

8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
** an alien to my own mother’s sons;**

9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

(How do we know this is a Jesus Prophecy?
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”)

I have heard it said that Jesus would be violating the Old Testament Law if he had handed Mary to John and he would have had brothers. Can someone point to such a law? I have seen the one about the wife going to the next brother (only if there were no sons Duet 25:5). However, the Old Testament Law required that your next available relative would get the widow. And according to Rome, Jesus had plenty of cousins that hung around Mary. But I see no such old testament law for mother. Please point it to me?

 

[Palaeologos]

There is just so much scripture about Jesus having brothers, you have to really try hard to pretend not to.

(citations snipped)

Adelphoi can be used of male cousins as well, as you acknowledge below. I’ve also heard the theory that Joseph had children by a previous marriage advanced. Maybe, maybe not. (shrug)

Psalm 69

8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
** an alien to my own mother’s sons;**

9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

(How do we know this is a Jesus Prophecy?
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”)

How is that a prophecy? Looks to me like his disciples are remembering an apposite verse of Scripture. If I were walking down an alley late at night and found myself surrounded by people who wanted to rob me, and the words “The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me” comes to mind, that doesn’t make Ps 22 a prophecy of my situation, nor does it mean that my hands and feet are about to be pierced.

I have heard it said that Jesus would be violating the Old Testament Law if he had handed Mary to John and he would have had brothers. Can someone point to such a law? I have seen the one about the wife going to the next brother (only if there were no sons Duet 25:5). However, the Old Testament Law required that your next available relative would get the widow. And according to Rome, Jesus had plenty of cousins that hung around Mary. But I see no such old testament law for mother. Please point it to me?

 

[Palaeologos]

There is just so much scripture about Jesus having brothers, you have to really try hard to pretend not to.

(citations snipped)

Adelphoi can be used of male cousins as well, as you acknowledge below. I’ve also heard the theory that Joseph had children by a previous marriage advanced. Maybe, maybe not. (shrug)

Psalm 69

8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
** an alien to my own mother’s sons;**

9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

(How do we know this is a Jesus Prophecy?
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.”)

How is that a prophecy? Looks to me like his disciples are remembering an apposite verse of Scripture. If I were walking down an alley late at night and found myself surrounded by people who wanted to rob me, and the words “The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me” comes to mind, that doesn’t make Ps 22 a prophecy of my situation, nor does it mean that my hands and feet are about to be pierced.

 

[rbarcia]

(citations snipped)

Adelphoi can be used of male cousins as well, as you acknowledge below. I’ve also heard the theory that Joseph had children by a previous marriage advanced. Maybe, maybe not. (shrug)

So the argument I have heard is not based on the Greek word. In the greek new testament the word for brothers is “adelphoi”, not used for cousin, and for cousin is “anepsios”. In those verses it’s written “adelphoi”. The argument I have heard is the aramaic or hebrew language. Although we only have Greek manuscripts for New Testament, so that is theory. Certainly Luke used the Greek relative word in reference to Mary and Elizabeth and used the brother word for Jesus’ Brothers. The new testament (except matthew and hebrews) was written to a non-jew public who did not speak hebrew nor aramaic and did not know the semitic culture. So, when it says “adelphoi” (brothers) it’s REALLY “adelphoi” (brothers).

How is that a prophecy? Looks to me like his disciples are remembering an apposite verse of Scripture. If I were walking down an alley late at night and found myself surrounded by people who wanted to rob me, and the words “The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me” comes to mind, that doesn’t make Ps 22 a prophecy of my situation, nor does it mean that my hands and feet are about to be pierced.

So if these Old Testament quotes that the Apostles remembered have nothing to do with prophecy, then a lot of arguments both catholics and christians use for old testament on Jesus go away. You can’t have it both ways.

Paul also quotes the same Psalm in Romans in reference to Christ Himself.

Romans 15:3
3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."

Psalm 69

8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my own mother’s sons;

9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

 

[Palaeologos]

So the argument I have heard is not based on the Greek word. In the greek new testament the word for brothers is “adelphoi”, not used for cousin, and for cousin is “anepsios”. In those verses it’s written “adelphoi”. The argument I have heard is the aramaic or hebrew language. Although we only have Greek manuscripts for New Testament, so that is theory. Certainly Luke used the Greek relative word in reference to Mary and Elizabeth and used the brother word for Jesus’ Brothers. The new testament (except matthew and hebrews) was written to a non-jew public who did not speak hebrew nor aramaic and did not know the semitic culture. So, when it says “adelphoi” (brothers) it’s REALLY “adelphoi” (brothers).

That argument is circular. You have decided in advance that “adelphoi” must mean brothers and are citing that assumption as evidence that your assumption is true. I’m not convinced.

So if these Old Testament quotes that the Apostles remembered have nothing to do with prophecy, then a lot of arguments both catholics and christians use for old testament on Jesus go away. You can’t have it both ways.

Paul also quotes the same Psalm in Romans in reference to Christ Himself.

Romans 15:3
3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."

Psalm 69

8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my own mother’s sons;

9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

There is a difference between allusion and prophecy. I’m wary of reading the Psalms prophetically, myself, because they are not by genre prophetic writings. They will reference past events and future hopes, but abstracting anything but typology from them seems like a dangerous exercise.

Not that we can’t see Jesus in the Psalms, or anywhere in the Old Testament–his signature is in all things–but to look for one-to-one correspondences there, or to try and derive historical details, seems to me like using them in ways they were never intended to be used. Kind of like the folks who want to derive their cosmology from the first 2 chapters of Genesis.

 

[rbarcia]

That argument is circular. You have decided in advance that “adelphoi” must mean brothers and are citing that assumption as evidence that your assumption is true. I’m not convinced.

I am not deciding anything. There is a Greek word for cousin.

There is a difference between allusion and prophecy. I’m wary of reading the Psalms prophetically, myself, because they are not by genre prophetic writings. They will reference past events and future hopes, but abstracting anything but typology from them seems like a dangerous exercise.

Not that we can’t see Jesus in the Psalms, or anywhere in the Old Testament–his signature is in all things–but to look for one-to-one correspondences there, or to try and derive historical details, seems to me like using them in ways they were never intended to be used. Kind of like the folks who want to derive their cosmology from the first 2 chapters of Genesis.

I am not deriving. I am using a New Testament quote of a passage in the Old Testament. I am reading Paul’s words as face value. This is not the same as cosmo stuff cause there is no scripture in the new testament shows that.

 

[Greenbrier]

I am not deciding anything. There is a Greek word for cousin.

Quite so, Paul uses it in his letter to the church in Colossae (Col. 4:10).

 

[Prieldedi]

It’s best to compare apples with apples. Let’s take a look at NT usage of ‘til’ and find out what happens.

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.” Using your logic, did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt?

Mt 5:26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till <2193> you have paid the last penny. Using your logic, after the last penny is paid, does the person stay in prision?

Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” Using your logic, did the disciples never tell about the vision? If not, how do we know about it?

Mt 18:34 “And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until <2193> he should pay all that was due to him.” Using your logic, I the man still being tortured?

Context tells us how to understand this.

If I said I did not (or will not) have sex until I got married. If I’m not married this should mean I haven’t had sex. If I’m married, what can you deduce from my statement as to whether or not I’ll have sex with my wife?

As you say, if you want to compare “apples with apples” stop reading this passage in English and go to the original apple:

Read it in the original language with the real use and meaning of the word 2000 years ago. Who can tell you best how was it written and what’s the real meaning of these passages? The Church! There is no one better qualified to explain it to you than the Church! The Church has been teaching the real meaning of ALL THE BIBLE for close to 2000 years. Why rely on some new meaning, probably 100-200 years old, in a different language, in a different land?

You have 2,000 years of millions of Catholics saying and believing, from day one, that the Messiah was born from a Virgin and that this Virgin remained Virgin for life. This has been known since the first century. On the other hand you have someone who was born in Europe or America, what, 1600, 1700 years after the fact and denying it? and you believe this person? On what ground? Come on! Use your common sense. Who knows better? Those who lived then and there in Palestine or those who read a translation of a translation of a translation 1700 years later in Europe/America? This is no brainier!

It has been demonstrated over and over that the “brothers” had other parents; that Jesus left John to take care of His mother instead of a family member (brother/sister) which was a no-no; that no one in the NT ever mentions “the SONS” of Mary, just “the SON of Mary”; that the Holy Family were just three persons, there were never other kids with Jesus; and yet with all those facts, what’s needed for you to finally say “it’s true, Jesus’ mother is a Virgin for life”?

Do you find it impossible for God to have willed that His Son would be born from a Virgin for life? This is not a man’s invention, it is the will of God that it happened that way. Is your god incapable of achieving that, because my GOD is Omnipotent! Blessed be God, Blessed be His Son Jesus, Blessed be the Holy Spirit and Blessed be Jesus mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary!

 

[wmscott]

What statement did I throw out? I just quoted a verse. What interpretation did I offer? I just quoted a verse.​

I have not studied anything from Helvidius. I just looked at the Bible and then compared the word ‘until’ with other NT uses and came to my own conclusion, as wrong (or right) as it may be.

You put out the following *“Matthew 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.” *as a statement to choy’s querstion *" for the Protestants who are Bible-only believers, where in the Bible did it say that Mary had other children?" *in effect you are saying that the Blessed Mothers Perpetual Virginity is false based on you own interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

Then you go on to state* “I just looked at the Bible and then compared the word ‘until’ with other NT uses and came to my own conclusion, as wrong (or right) as it may be”. *You don’t see why you are being challenged on you assertions? Catholic here have provided you in this thread and others, references from Sacred Scripture and from Church history from the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, Popes, priests, and prominent theologians throughout history, and all you come back with opinions and misinterpreted Bible verses.

Had you studied or even glanced or read at some level any of Church history on the various subjects that you participate in, you may have come across things like Helvidius and the Churche’s defense against his heretical teachings.