The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

[steamboatp]

Hello everyone.

The Church says that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after Christ’s birth. Why was Mary necessarily a virgin after Christ’s birth? By that time Joseph had taken Mary into his house, which meant they were married. I heard that Mary took an oath of virginity before the Annunciation, but if so, why would she get betrothed and then married?

 

[Verbum]

Hi Steamboat

God ordered Joseph to take Mary as his wife.

Verbum

 

[PC_Master]

There is already another thread about this in the main apologetics forum, but your question hasn’t been addressed there.

To help answer your question – Mary was actually betrothed before the appearance of the angel. So, the real question is – why would Mary have become betrothed to a man if she had taken a vow of celibacy? The angel telling Joseph to do so is simply not valid, as they were betrothed before that.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Hello everyone.

The Church says that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after Christ’s birth. Why was Mary necessarily a virgin after Christ’s birth? By that time Joseph had taken Mary into his house, which meant they were married. I heard that Mary took an oath of virginity before the Annunciation, but if so, why would she get betrothed and then married?

One theory is that there was no place for an unmarried woman in that society. She needed a protector.

 

[LilyM]

There is already another thread about this in the main apologetics forum, but your question hasn’t been addressed there.

To help answer your question – Mary was actually betrothed before the appearance of the angel. So, the real question is – why would Mary have become betrothed to a man if she had taken a vow of celibacy? The angel telling Joseph to do so is simply not valid, as they were betrothed before that.

There’s an early writing, not canonical but still well worth considering, called the Protevangelion of James, which spells it out.

Mary is stated in this writing to have been a Temple virgin - vowed to God’s service and celibacy as a child. Such virgins only remained in the Temple until they reached marriageable age - kinda like boarding school for girls I guess, I believe they were educated there and so on.

Upon leaving they wed chastely (since they were still bound by their vows of celibacy) to male protectors, usually elderly widowers such as Joseph is often portrayed as. These protectors respected the virgins’ vows of celibacy.

Certainly this is pretty much what happened with the Vestal Virgins of Rome as well - although they served till they were older, leaving at the age of 35.

 

[Good_Fella]

There is already another thread about this in the main apologetics forum, but your question hasn’t been addressed there.

To help answer your question – Mary was actually betrothed before the appearance of the angel. So, the real question is – why would Mary have become betrothed to a man if she had taken a vow of celibacy? The angel telling Joseph to do so is simply not valid, as they were betrothed before that.

If you do some proper research for a change, you will discover that celibate marriages were contracted among Jewish couples. The Jewish catacombs in Rome contain the names of some of these rare couples. Joseph was chosen by God to be the wife of Mary and the foster father of Jesus, for he too was a chaste man. Meanwhile, Matthew does not explicitly say that Mary and Joseph had no relations until “after” the birth of Jesus. He is referring to the time of their betrothal and marriage before the birth of Christ to stress the truth of the virgin birth and the fullfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.

“I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” ( Matthew 11:11; cf. Luke 7:28)

According to Sacred Tradition, Mary is perfect in every way, including her perfect virginity, because of her Immaculate Conception. Both Jesus and Mary are greater than John.

“For the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
{ Luke 1:49}

“The Son of God…was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.”

Epiphanius, ‘Well Anchored Man’, 120 (A.D. 374)

“The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin.”

Basil, ‘Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem’, 5 (A.D. 379)

“If anyone does not confess that the holy and ever-Virgin and immaculate Mary did not conceive without seed by the power of the Holy Spirit the very Word of God, give birth to him without corruption, thereafter that very virginity remaining ever integral, let him be anathema.”

Pope Martin 1, Lateran Synod in Rome (A.D. 649)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[love4mary]

Apply a little common sense also. At the time when the Angel appeared to Mary she must have been only a teen. Now in that culture and time for a teenage woman to be with child and NOT married would have met with certain Stoning (this would apply to any single woman pregnant) this would explain why Mary needed an earthly husband, I say earthly husband because the Holy Spirit is Mary’s Eternal Spouse.

As to the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, If St. Joseph and Mary had other children after the birth of Jesus, that would or might have raised doubts in the minds of others about Jesus Himself. After all, if St. Joseph and Mary had more children who is to say that the events of the Annunciation are accurate, they could have made up that story to hide the fact that they had pre-marital relations.

 

[jnnywren]

Joseph was protecting Mary, from any inevitable stoning that surely would have happened if he had not protected her, he knew it was his divine calling to protect the son of god

 

[FCEGM]

Hello everyone.

The Church says that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after Christ’s birth. Why was Mary necessarily a virgin after Christ’s birth? By that time Joseph had taken Mary into his house, which meant they were married. I heard that Mary took an oath of virginity before the Annunciation, but if so, why would she get betrothed and then married?

This excellent article addresses some of your questions:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm

. . .There is also the religious distinction between the sacred and the profane or ordinary. Something sacred is set apart from the ordinary only for Divine use or purpose. For example, one does not take the chalice used at Mass and use it for ordinary meals to drink soda from. Mary’s womb is the sacred “chalice” containing the Divine Humanity of God the Son; her womb is to be used only for that Divine purpose – because of the Holiness of God (God in the Judeo-Christian understanding is different from His Creation; and Holiness is the attribute of this difference). So there is a religious “logic” of the sacred as different from the profane, i.e., the creaturely element set apart only for Divine use or purpose, therefore never for ordinary use. It does not mean the ordinary is dirty or evil; the ordinary is good but not Divine. The sacred is taking something away from ordinary use and consecrating it for the Divine. That is why God would change the order of things for the unique Incarnation of His Divine Son.

Thus there are at least two sets of reasons for the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. The first is the one just mentioned: the Holiness of Mary’s womb to be used for no other purpose but a thoroughly Divine one, never to be desecrated by ordinary use or purpose. Second, manifesting the Divine origin of her Child. If she had other children the ordinary way then why wouldn’t her first child be just a human with a human father like His brothers and sisters? He must be a unique son of Mary to manifest being the unique Son of God the Father, having no biological father. . .

 

[BlestOne]

Among Jewish men of that time, Joseph would be well aware that he could never have sex with Mary as she bore a child not of him. Jewish men considered this unclean and would not have sex with a woman, wife or not, where they were not the one and only…so to speak.

Other than that, even in their time, Mary was known as the new Ark because she carried the “Word” and for any man to touch her would have meant instant death from God. Just as the old Ark of the Covenant could not be touched, so too the new Ark could not either.

It was also a practice at that time to wed with a consecrated virgin of the temple and to honor her vow of celibacy. This ensured God’s work could be accomplished because the virgins would be taken care of for life. The other posters that stated that she would most likely marry a widow is correct, however, there is no mention of the widowhood of Joseph… which could just mean that is was quite common and was not considered noteworthy to mention.

 

[byoby]

First of all, is it a sin to consecrate marriage?

Please excuse my ignorance, but if Mary was born without sin it would be logical for me to assume that she would have no need for Christ Atoning Sacrifice. I beleive this could even lead some to reason that she could have died in our place for our sin.

Please correct me if I am in error.

 

[Church_Militant]

First of all, is it a sin to consecrate marriage?

Please excuse my ignorance, but if Mary was born without sin it would be logical for me to assume that she would have no need for Christ Atoning Sacrifice. I believe this could even lead some to reason that she could have died in our place for our sin.

Please correct me if I am in error.

You’re definitely wrong on this one.

Lemme link you to some good stuff on what we Catholics really believe about Mary…then perhaps we have a place to begin to talk.
Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin (Fathers*)
Mary: Full of Grace (Fathers*)
Mary: Mother of God (Fathers*)

					[The Intercession of the Saints](http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp) (Fathers*)
					[Praying to the Saints](http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp)
					[Saint Worship?](http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp)
					[Do Catholics Worship Statues?](http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp)
					 						
					['Brethren of the Lord'](http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp)

 

[byoby]

Thank you for the links

*Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. *

Was not Abraham saved in the same manner? by anticipation, Faith.

Are we not all saved through Grace in Faith in Christ and preserved from the stain of origonal sin and its consequences. I just do not understand asking Mary to pray for us. I have faith that God in his omnipresence hears our prayers. How can a human hear all the prayers devoted to him/her without having the same nature as God. I do not want to detract from Mary as surely she is blessed in her obediance and faith in God. I just cannot come to terms with devotion to her or anyone besides our Lord who wants all of our devotion even above that of our own families.

I confess I have not read through all of the links and maybe these questions are answered there. Got ahead of myself.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you for the links

*Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. *

Was not Abraham saved in the same manner? by anticipation, Faith.

Are we not all saved through Grace in Faith in Christ and preserved from the stain of origonal sin and its consequences. I just do not understand asking Mary to pray for us. I have faith that God in his omnipresence hears our prayers. How can a human hear all the prayers devoted to him/her without having the same nature as God. I do not want to detract from Mary as surely she is blessed in her obediance and faith in God. I just cannot come to terms with devotion to her or anyone besides our Lord who wants all of our devotion even above that of our own families.

I confess I have not read through all of the links and maybe these questions are answered there. Got ahead of myself.

ALL those in heaven will ‘be like Him (God) for we shall see Him as He really is’. And Jesus Himself said those who believe in Him would be able to do the same and greater works than He Himself. Well, we don’t on earth, so where? In heaven!

John got a foretaste of the abilities of the heavenly saints when he spoke in Revelation of angels presenting incense mingled with prayers to God. Obviously this refers to the prayers of those on earth, those in heaven are with God in person to present their prayers to Him!

And He spoke of the martyrs (heavenly saints) pleading God to avenge them on earth - why would they ask this if they couldn’t see and hear what was going on on earth to know that they WEREN’T being avenged?

John got another foretaste when he himself was permitted by the grace of God to see and hear all beings in heaven, on earth and under the earth at once, all worshipping God in unison. So the ability to see and hear lots of things simultaneously (which isn’t automatically the same as omniscience) isn’t a unique attribute of God - or if it is it’s one He graciously grants a share in to others.

 

[po18guy]

Hello everyone.

The Church says that Mary was a virgin before, during, and after Christ’s birth. Why was Mary necessarily a virgin after Christ’s birth? By that time Joseph had taken Mary into his house, which meant they were married. I heard that Mary took an oath of virginity before the Annunciation, but if so, why would she get betrothed and then married?

In the manner of Christ being baptized: to fulfill all righteousness. Just popped into my head.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Thank you for the links
Was not Abraham saved in the same manner? by anticipation, Faith.

Good question. I don’t believe so, but I’ll have to look into that. Thanks for the research topic! (No, really!)

Are we not all saved through Grace in Faith in Christ and preserved from the stain of origonal sin and its consequences.

Yes, we are saved by Grace…, but no, we are not all preserved from the stain of original sin (like Mary was.) We are washed of that stain when we are born again “of water and the Spirit” in baptism!

I just do not understand asking Mary to pray for us. I have faith that God in his omnipresence hears our prayers. How can a human hear all the prayers devoted to him/her without having the same nature as God. I do not want to detract from Mary as surely she is blessed in her obediance and faith in God. I just cannot come to terms with devotion to her or anyone besides our Lord who wants all of our devotion even above that of our own families.
I confess I have not read through all of the links and maybe these questions are answered there. Got ahead of myself.

While worship and adoration are reserved to Him alone, but where does the Bible or Church claim that the Lord wants all of our devotion?

As to how can Mary (or any of the Saint’s) hear us, the articles linked above can answer this quite well.

While not mentioned in the article, I remember hearing an explanation that pointed out that it is due to the fact that both we on earth, and the saints in heaven are all living members of the Body of Christ, of which Jesus is the head.

Hope this helps!

Chris

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

“Mary’s Virginity”/ “Mary’s Children” topics are getting rather redundant which is why I think we should sticky one in order to avoid redundant questions. It will save a LOT of bandwidth hopefully. Who’s with me?

 

[steamboatp]

It is starting to make sense now. That part about the difference between the ordinary and the sacred especially helped. Thank you everyone for your posts!