The Perpetual Virginity of our Blessed Mother Mary Theotokos

[Bookworm77]

Hi everyone.

My name is Jonathan from Wellington New Zealand.

I am a recent (and most-happy!) convert to the Catholic Faith, and was a former protestant for most of my life prior - just turned 43. .

For about a year, I examined in detail all the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church and after reading the Apostolic Fathers - Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch etc. - am 100% convinced that the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ and passed to St Peter is the One True Apostolic Catholic Church.

One of the last things to embrace - being difficult for most Protestants - is the Dogma of the Assumption of Mary - which I now fully believe as I trust that “the Gates of Hell will not Prevail against the Church” - I fully embrace the authority of the Catholic Church.

Anyway, when I learned about the Assumption Dogma, I was surprised but blessed to find that this feast-day is on my birthday.
My mother’s name is Mary Elizabeth also.
Unfortunately she is Protestant, but at least half-Catholic in her understanding of true Christianity and she is certainly a sincere and caring follower of Christ
She has terrible trouble with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and said ‘I just can’t believe that.’

Have others found that the** Ever Virgin** Mary doctrine is a difficult subject to discuss with Protestants?

It seems that there are not too many ‘sermons’ on our Blessed Mother in the many (many is an understatement…) diverse Protestant groups - ‘churches’ - throughout the ages.
So it is OK to focus on Timothy, Peter, Jude, etc., for sermons but not on Mary?
‘I do protest’ LOL
Do Protestants even regard Mary as being indeed full of grace and worthy in the mind of the Father to be both the New Ark and the New Eve?

 

[Nyika]

Hi Bookworm 77, I am also ‘struggling’ with the doctrine re Mary’s Assumption. Apparently, the doctrine has been consistent throughout history but it was not until 1 November 1950 that Pope Pius X11 formally announced it. It seems that this doctrine has been recognised by scholastic doctors through an allusion to the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God in the woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos (Rev.12:1ff.) I find it all a bit difficult to understand but the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it like this ‘The Immaculate Virgin Mary, preserved from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conquerer of sin and death’ (para.966)

 

[Monica4316]

Hi Bookworm 77, I am also ‘struggling’ with the doctrine re Mary’s Assumption. Apparently, the doctrine has been consistent throughout history but it was not until 1 November 1950 that Pope Pius X11 formally announced it. It seems that this doctrine has been recognised by scholastic doctors through an allusion to the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God in the woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos (Rev.12:1ff.) I find it all a bit difficult to understand but the Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it like this ‘The Immaculate Virgin Mary, preserved from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conquerer of sin and death’ (para.966)

This doctrine was always believed by both the East and the West… Dogmas typically only get pronounced once there is need to clarify something, typically when there is some opposition or confusion on the question. But they are ideas that were already believed by the Church

 

[Monica4316]

The Assumption and the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady can both be linked to Jesus’ Divinity.

For example, Jesus being God, its simply hard to imagine there being simply created ordinary children in Mary’s womb after Him.

Reading books like Mary of Agreda’s Mystical City of God, really made me realise more how incredibly holy God is and the level of holiness that His Mother should have is simply beyond comprehension! Only a sinless pure woman could have been His Mother, and her acts of love towards God should have (and did) exceed that of the greatest Angels.

The Assumption also happened for this reason, and also because Our Lord didn’t want His Mother’s body to have the same end as the bodies of sinners… He received His human nature from her and so He raised her most pure body to Heaven

It all shows God’s holiness and His love for His Mother

 

[Bookworm77]

Hi.

Sorry for the late reply.
I have just moved flat.
Just joined this forum recently, it is an excellent resource as well as Catholic Answers - good work Christians!

As I am only just getting to know other Catholics (myself being a recent concert), it is encouraging to be in contact with Christians with the correct Catholic understanding of things.
My Mum and Dad are both Protestants and most of ‘the Catholic way’ is not properly understood by them, which is typical.

Personally I feel more (completely) confident to trust the Apostolic Tradition and the Church Fathers understanding of these issues - the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, for example - than modern Protestants who don’t even realise that even Luther and Calvin believed in Mary Ever Virgin.
Most Protestants I have met hardly know their own history, let alone the True Catholic history of the Church

Thank you Nyika and Monica for your replies.
Much appreciated.

‘The Immaculate Virgin Mary, preserved from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conquerer of sin and death’ (para.966)

Amen.

This doctrine was always believed by both the East and the West… Dogmas typically only get pronounced once there is need to clarify something, typically when there is some opposition or confusion on the question. But they are ideas that were already believed by the Church

I agree entirely, we can see the kernels of these Dogma’s from the earliest Christian times and throughout the 2000 years of Church (Catholic) history, and Protestants who think that the ‘Catholics just came up with all this stuff about Mary’ do not know their history, what’s that verse about ‘my people perish because of lack of knowledge’ (Hosea 4:6) …

Reading books like Mary of Agreda’s Mystical City of God, really made me realise more how incredibly holy God is and the level of holiness that His Mother should have is simply beyond comprehension! Only a sinless pure woman could have been His Mother, and her acts of love towards God should have (and did) exceed that of the greatest Angels.

The Assumption also happened for this reason, and also because Our Lord didn’t want His Mother’s body to have the same end as the bodies of sinners… He received His human nature from her and so He raised her most pure body to Heaven

It all shows God’s holiness and His love for His Mother

Amen, again.
I will have a look at the book “Mary of Agreda’s Mystical City of God.”

Thanks and have a great day.
God bless.:angel1::knight1:

P.S.

Dr Robert Sungenis defends Our Lady well on this debate:

youtu.be/Wus6CrzleRw

This and other debate’s were influential as well as the writings of the Church Fathers (the main reason) to me becoming a Catholic.

 

[godisgood77]

This doctrine was always believed by both the East and the West… Dogmas typically only get pronounced once there is need to clarify something, typically when there is some opposition or confusion on the question. But they are ideas that were already believed by the Church

There is a great book titled ‘The Assumption of Mary’ by Father Killian Healy which does the best job I’ve seen of breaking down the dogma of the assumption of Mary. There is existence of this belief starting in around the 4th century. So when people say that the Church ‘has always’ believed or taught it, know that is not true. This belief developed over time and was declared a dogma very late. Pius XII had a strong devotion to Mary and wanted to promote an event increase in devotion to Mary making the declaration opportune.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who would like to understand the history of the Church’s teaching on the assumption.

 

[Nicea325]

Hi everyone.

My name is Jonathan from Wellington New Zealand.

I am a recent (and most-happy!) convert to the Catholic Faith, and was a former protestant for most of my life prior - just turned 43. .

For about a year, I examined in detail all the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church and after reading the Apostolic Fathers - Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch etc. - am 100% convinced that the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ and passed to St Peter is the One True Apostolic Catholic Church.

One of the last things to embrace - being difficult for most Protestants - is the Dogma of the Assumption of Mary - which I now fully believe as I trust that “the Gates of Hell will not Prevail against the Church” - I fully embrace the authority of the Catholic Church.

Anyway, when I learned about the Assumption Dogma, I was surprised but blessed to find that this feast-day is on my birthday.
My mother’s name is Mary Elizabeth also.
Unfortunately she is Protestant, but at least half-Catholic in her understanding of true Christianity and she is certainly a sincere and caring follower of Christ
She has terrible trouble with the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and said ‘I just can’t believe that.’

Have others found that the** Ever Virgin** Mary doctrine is a difficult subject to discuss with Protestants?

It seems that there are not too many ‘sermons’ on our Blessed Mother in the many (many is an understatement…) diverse Protestant groups - ‘churches’ - throughout the ages.
So it is OK to focus on Timothy, Peter, Jude, etc., for sermons but not on Mary?
‘I do protest’ LOL
Do Protestants even regard Mary as being indeed full of grace and worthy in the mind of the Father to be both the New Ark and the New Eve?

Yes it is difficult to teach. Many Protestants will say it is not Biblical or not possible. Well didn’t Elijah have the same experience?

 

[Bookworm77]

There is a great book titled ‘The Assumption of Mary’ by Father Killian Healy which does the best job I’ve seen of breaking down the dogma of the assumption of Mary. There is existence of this belief starting in around the 4th century. So when people say that the Church ‘has always’ believed or taught it, know that is not true. This belief developed over time and was declared a dogma very late. Pius XII had a strong devotion to Mary and wanted to promote an event increase in devotion to Mary making the declaration opportune.

I remember hearing about this book on Scott Hahn’s ‘testimony’ video.
Will try and get this book - thanks

Many Protestants will say it is not Biblical or not possible. Well didn’t Elijah have the same experience?

Exactly and Enoch.

Interesting to note that the first heresies were denying God becoming flesh.
We as Christians believe that God became flesh in the Lord Jesus Christ and that He rose from the dead - literally.
Also we believe in Christ’s words about the Eucharist.
By holding to these above beliefs, we already have become ‘fools’ in the eyes of the world.
After accepting the truth that God became man - for real - and acknowledging the many miracles God has worked throughout history, accepting Dogma’s about Our Lady from the Church Christ established simply remind us that our beliefs are indeed supernatural.

This is a funny video about Protestantism eventually leading to Atheism.
I just googled 'Protestantism leads to Atheism and found this short clip:

youtu.be/rottAKDSDLQ

This kerfuffle originated in man’s pride - by rejecting the Church God founded and now rejecting God also.
It is a question of authority - I believe that we should humble ourselves and accept the Church’s authority 'rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft" (1 Sam 15:23)

youtube.com/watch?v=rottAKDSDLQ

 

[thistle]

Yes it is difficult to teach. Many Protestants will say it is not Biblical or not possible. Well didn’t Elijah have the same experience?

We do not know where Elijah and Enoch went.
As the gates of Heaven were closed to ALL before the death and resurrection of Jesus it is pretty clear they were not taken into Heaven at that time.