The Philosophy of Drunkenness

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At what point does “drunkenness” occur in relation to sinfulness? The way I understand it, consumption of alcohol to the point where we “impair our ability to reason” is when the sin occurs. Disscuss the relationship between alcohol and impairing of reason.

Because you know there are always those people who say… I’m not drunk, usually because they have a different idea of what “drunk” is than you. 😛
 
If “impairing our ability to reason” is the threshhold, I daresay one couldn’t have more than one drink or so. (At least I couldn’t) Is drunkenness itself a sin?

I looked up St. Thomas Aquinas’ writing on it, and he says so.
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newadvent.org/summa/3150.htm

How does this jive with the wedding at Cana? I always got the feeling there was plenty enough wine there for everyone’s reason to be impaired. 🙂 Now I’m curious.
 
Jesus said “that which goes into you is not bad but what comes out of the heart is what is bad” (I’m paraphrsing). If some one drinks and lets say beats his wife it is not the drink that made him do it becuse the anger was already in that persons heart to begin with. Alcohol or any other “drug” are just things that have no thoughts or feelings and what we do on them is through our own choice it just gives us the courage to do such things. A rabbi years ago told me a story that is part of their oral tradition: when noah came of the ark and let all the animals out, he planted a vinyard. The angel of darkness showed up with a lamb and sacrificed it and spread its blood over the vinyard, the angel showed up three times more before harvest once with a lion, next a monkey and lastly a pig. the moral is a few drinks make you mellow like a lamb drink more and you become like a lion brave avbout everything, keep drinking and you start to behave like a foolish monke and if you keep drinking your gonna end up like the pig wallowing in your own filth. there is nothing wrong with drinking just learn your limite. I learned mine when I was 23 and drank so much my buddies were pushing me around in a shoping cart, I have not drank that much since,
 
Let me add to the discussion. The Church teaches us to be wary of “occasions to sin”. This means that we should not put ourselves in situations that may cause us to sin. Now suppose we know that once we start drinking sooner or later we won’t be able to control our urge to drink more. For these people then it would be prudent that they do not start drinking at all. But then some people have a better tolerance to alcohol and have such discipline that even if they start drinking they would still be in control and not allow themselves to get drunk. so it depends on a person’s self discipline, which I believe varies between person to person.
 
I’ve always wondered about this too since I’ve never seen the definitive word from the Church except that drunkenness can lead to sin since it impairs our judgment. Certainly a drunken state lowers culpability, but if you’re intentionally getting drunk and putting yourself in bad situations, I’d image that’s grave matter.

In absence of those “bad decisions” like violence, illicit sex or doing something dangerous, I think the line is where you become abusive to your body. As with drugs, there’s definitely a line where you are damaging the temple God has given you. Want to have a few beers while watching the game, hanging out with the boys or what have you? Sure. A couple glasses of wine with your wife or even girlfriend/fiancee (provided that doesn’t lead to something bad) then fine. And hey, you can even go to parties and get a good buzz and have a good time. But if you got so wasted that you’re passing out, throwing up and all of that stuff and you went out that evening with the INTENT to have that many drinks, I think that’s crossing the line.
 
Does this apply to marijuana? What about psychedelics? I used to love my psychedelics.
 
Didn’t realize that was the standard. Now I guess the question though is what constitutes “excessive” so as to avoid even venial sin. I have to think it’s fine to get a decent buzz as one would get at a wedding celebration or something other than a frat party. I’d imagine again that getting to the point of falling down drunk, vomiting or blacking out would be venial matter if you don’t lose the ability to gauge right from wrong.

Honestly, I know I’ve had too much to drink in the past to the point of venial sinfulness… but I’ve never lost the ability to distinguish right from wrong. Maybe smart versus not so smart like deciding to run around shirtless in a Chicago winter just to be funny… but not right from wrong.
 
Bookcat said:
catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33231

and

catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33754

These are from the well known Catholic Theologian Fr. John Hardon SJ
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Thanks… these are really helpful and as far as I am concerned answer my question. I think this particular topic of alcohol is really applicable to people’s lives today. Sometimes it seems “fun” to have a little to much to drink and for the last few years of high school and first few years of college it preoccupied a lot of my time. However, as we mature in this area we begin to see that adhering to the moral law here (as with everything else) is very liberating! Using alcohol in its proper context can be a real good, but in my opinion it is vitally important to get this right. We always have to monitor our purpose for using and our intent.

For the person who asked about marijuana and psychedelics… I would say that psychedelics impair one enough to always be considered sinful and a grave matter. Marijuana (which I have never really used) seems to have an effect comparable to alcohol… so I hear. However, the other element that goes into that conversation is the culture you are supporting through its purchase and use. Not to mention it is illegal and in this matter always sinful to break that law. Like I said I don’t know the details of its effect on the mind and body, however, if it legal, safely and properly distributed (like alcohol) I would say that the same principles would probably apply to its use. At least, that’s how I see it… and I am no expert.
 
Since I’ve arrived at college, I can say that I have had a few drinks, but I never want to get so drunk I can’t reason. I say, one can drink until they are “buzzed” (giggly and silly, but still able to reason). Then they should show discipline and stop. If one can’t do that, one shouldn’t drink.
 
The_Bucket said:
I’d imagine again that getting to the point of falling down drunk, vomiting or blacking out would be venial matter if you don’t lose the ability to gauge right from wrong.
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I disagree. While you may not have lost the ability to reason (which would be unusual if you were that drunk), you are causing major harm to your body.
 
The_Bucket said:
Didn’t realize that was the standard. Now I guess the question though is what constitutes “excessive” so as to avoid even venial sin. I have to think it’s fine to get a decent buzz as one would get at a wedding celebration or something other than a frat party. I’d imagine again that getting to the point of falling down drunk, vomiting or blacking out would be venial matter if you don’t lose the ability to gauge right from wrong.
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this later part would seem to fit the grave definition…see below:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6504868&postcount=7

as to venial…it would be that which is excessive…but not to the point of mortal sin.

in eating and drinking in general…can be a difficult area to stay within reason at times at least…

but it is reason and the virtue of temperance and prudence…that are the measure here

and much will have to do with the particular person and the occasion…for one can say too that a celebration calls for a bit more reasonable eating and drinking than a normal day…for it is a celebration…
 
The_Bucket said:
Didn’t realize that was the standard. Now I guess the question though is what constitutes “excessive” so as to avoid even venial sin. I have to think it’s fine to get a decent buzz as one would get at a wedding celebration or something other than a frat party. I’d imagine again that getting to the point of falling down drunk, vomiting or blacking out would be venial matter if you don’t lose the ability to gauge right from wrong.

Honestly, I know I’ve had too much to drink in the past to the point of venial sinfulness… but I’ve never lost the ability to distinguish right from wrong. Maybe smart versus not so smart like deciding to run around shirtless in a Chicago winter just to be funny… but not right from wrong.
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I’d say its different for everyone, just like all sorts of things that lead to sin. For one person a glance at a naked lady in a magazine would lead to a sexual sin, but for another it might just make them shrug and wonder if “those are real”. Now, for one man the magazine caused him to think sinful thoughts, yet the other man, the magazine meant nothing.

Just like grog. My brother is a real “two can man”, a couple of beers and he gets a bit tipsy, about four and hes so drunk and out of control of his senses its not funny. But me, I can drink back a bottle of wine in 20 minutes and it gives me a “buzz”, but yet, no matter how “drunk” I get, I’ve never been led to sin, I’m still in control of all my senses and abilities.
 
I just want to be sure this is mentioned in the conversation… I would hope that when dealing with alcohol our goal is not just to avoid mortal sin. The distinction is really only helpful for me when I am going to confession. It does not dictate how close to the line I’ll see if I can get.

Clearly, it is fun to drink a little bit in excess, to the point of a venial sin. However, ultimately will not lead to a lasting form of peace and happiness. Being virtuous in this area is such a wonderful witness to others… because so many people revolve their plans and ultimately large portions of their lives around the effects alcohol has on the body…

Sitting down at a bar and having a few drinks and not indulging oneself raises conversation with those who don’t understand. Virtue and self-control are compelling to people who have none or very little in this area. People are wary of condemnation when it comes to alcohol because it too so many people it seems incompatible with the will of God. The moment you fall into sin when drinking your witness to others is lost. So while you may be able to drink a whole bottle of wine and not fall into sin it may be very easy for others to miss that… because when most people drink a whole bottle of wine they can’t think straight… not to mention no matter who you are that amount of alcohol on a regular to somewhat regular basis is terrible for your health and body… So I think it is important to be careful who we drink around as well. A little edit here… I just realized whoever posted that is not from the US and I won’t claim to know much about the culture and situations there. Perhaps in you neck of the woods livers don’t pickle so easily.

Also, I agree with the person who posted on celebrations. So like everyone is saying the answer is relative to person, place, and situation. Obviously, its not as complex as it sounds, but there is a lot of wisdom involved in proper use of one of God’s greatest gifts! I learned proper moderation in this part of my life from spending time and having drinks with Benedictine Monks… they love their alcohol but they know its proper place in the life of prayer and love of Christ.
 
Purposeful drunkeness is a sin. But what about the mentally ill, especially people with schizophrenia which is caused by brain chemistry. About 50% of people with this illness are also alcoholic.Many have no contact with their families as in many cases, no one wants them around. In my own state, almost all long-term mental institutions closed. In addition, there are fewer hospitals with short-term psychiatric care than there were ten and twenty years ago. Many of these people are on our streets talking to voices that are not there. Some willingly follow their treatment plans at outpatient mental health clinics. Some don’t and are dropped as patients as there are no longer in existence the pscyhiatric insitutions that used to be there for hard-core, difficult patients. I could go on as the stories & problems associated with this problem are many. Good book on this is “The Insanity Offense-How America’s Failure To Treat The Seriously Mentally Ill Endangers Its Citizens” by E. Fuller Torrey(2008,Norton). A late close relative was both schizophrenic, adult onset, & alcoholic, drank only beer. He did go through some years without drinking. He was not a heavy drinker as a young adult. I had him hospitalized about 20 times over a span of seventeen years. He needed long-term help and not brief hospital stays. May his soul rest in peace.
 
I am an alcoholic who hasn’t had a drink in the last 19 years. I did not drink to get drunk; I understood well that that would be seriously sinful. But I did get drunk, frequently (I don’t mean falling down, but impaired just the same). I would always resolve to be more discreet next time, but drinking bedcame a way of life (I was a bartender). There is a moral principle that guided me: abusum rei usum non tollit (the misuse of something does not negate its rightful use), but I could not rightly apply it because it does not apply to alcoholism. If one has consistent difficulty in drinking to excess, there is but one course of action - stop drinking entirely. Application of the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous is a very effective solution. They require a total surrender of self to God seeking only knowledge of His will and the power to carry it out. It works.
 
I think that to consume or do anything to an extent that results in us in submitting our free will over to anything or anyone other than God is wrong and very dangerous. Free will, an incredible gift is what makes us human and not just survival orientated animals. Whether it be alcohol, drugs, occult, obsession, we should never surrender control of ourselves over to anything than the Holy Spirit. If we do we open the door to all sorts of evil influences.
 
Moscati said:
If “impairing our ability to reason” is the threshhold, I daresay one couldn’t have more than one drink or so. (At least I couldn’t) Is drunkenness itself a sin?

I looked up St. Thomas Aquinas’ writing on it, and he says so.
.
newadvent.org/summa/3150.htm

How does this jive with the wedding at Cana? I always got the feeling there was plenty enough wine there for everyone’s reason to be impaired. 🙂 Now I’m curious.
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If “impairing our ability to reason” is the threshold, then staying up all night (even sober) is a sin. So is going under anesthesia for a medical procedure!

I think the real answer has to be a lot more nuanced. Impairing one’s reasonable judgment in a situation that is already a near occasion of sin could be a sin in itself. The reasons for drinking to excess could impact moral culpability, too. I think it’s a definite sin to drink so much—whether in a single binge or over a long period of alcoholism—that one endangers one’s health.
 
presidentjlh said:
I disagree. While you may not have lost the ability to reason (which would be unusual if you were that drunk), you are causing major harm to your body.
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I agree… if you knowingly get so drunk that you have endangered your health, that’s grave matter. OTOH, some people (particularly inexperienced drinkers) may not know their limits, and others may not even know they’re drinking (don’t drink the punch at a frat party!). In these cases, full consent is not present. But drinking to the point of passing out, yeah, grave matter.
 
over60 said:
Purposeful drunkeness is a sin. But what about the mentally ill, especially people with schizophrenia which is caused by brain chemistry. About 50% of people with this illness are also alcoholic.Many have no contact with their families as in many cases, no one wants them around. In my own state, almost all long-term mental institutions closed. In addition, there are fewer hospitals with short-term psychiatric care than there were ten and twenty years ago. Many of these people are on our streets talking to voices that are not there. Some willingly follow their treatment plans at outpatient mental health clinics. Some don’t and are dropped as patients as there are no longer in existence the pscyhiatric insitutions that used to be there for hard-core, difficult patients. I could go on as the stories & problems associated with this problem are many. Good book on this is “The Insanity Offense-How America’s Failure To Treat The Seriously Mentally Ill Endangers Its Citizens” by E. Fuller Torrey(2008,Norton). A late close relative was both schizophrenic, adult onset, & alcoholic, drank only beer. He did go through some years without drinking. He was not a heavy drinker as a young adult. I had him hospitalized about 20 times over a span of seventeen years. He needed long-term help and not brief hospital stays. May his soul rest in peace.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry to hear about your relative. The culpability of the mentally ill in this matter is judged (by God, btw, not us) the same way as in other matters. Mental illness can impair the ability to give full consent, and sometimes the ability to have full awareness of grave matter. Certainly all but the sickest can still commit mortal sin, but God in his justice and mercy surely gives them more “leeway.”
 
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