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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Though the actual writting addresses medication it would more than reasonable to apply the writting to medical procedures.
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Sure
Guest
If a D&C were performed to merely remove the unwanted sperm from the woman’s uterus, that would be in accord with this directive. Provided of course, that a test indicates that she is not likely to be pregnant. It would seem that if one can take medication, one could also undergo a medical procedure.
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Seatuck
Guest
No this is not true. That is not one of the treatments for a rape, in the US. Where did you get this idea?Is there a document from Canada allowing it? A D&C is a surgical procedure for specific ailments as well as abortion. Not as a cleansing procedure.
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Seatuck
Guest
That is not an acceptable treatment but douching would be.
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utunumsint
Guest
This is my understanding from my Opus Dei spiritual director.
Plus, if you are impregnated, it is almost impossible to know until around two weeks after implantation. That would be after the luteal phase was complete, and a period missed. Even then, it could only be determined via pregnancy tests. The body needs that time to produce sufficient amounts of the hormone use to indicate pregnancy.
The D and C after rape would be to remove the possibility of infection. Not abortion. Douche would not be enough.
God bless,
Ut
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kage_ar
Guest
Thank you for your response and clarification that this was opinion from an SD not an offical statement of the Church.
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utunumsint
Guest
So are you saying that if a women is raped, she should wait two weeks before having this procedure?
God bless,
Ut
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srferdave
Guest
If I may interject my voice into this conversation…
I think its important to focus on what I highlighted above. There must be appropriate testing first. If the testing does not yield any evidence the victim is pregnant, than proper procedures can be done to prevent ovulation.
I think this is pretty clear.
It seems feasible someone might respond… “well, since you don’t know that one is pregnant until 2 weeks after conception how can you know at the time of the test”. My answer to that would be at the time of the test, if there is no evidence than it seems to be permissable to perform such procedures.
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kage_ar
Guest
Ovulation test kits are so common now you can buy them at Wal Mart.
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utunumsint
Guest
Ovulation test kits test for ovulation only. They do not indicate whether the ovum has been fertilized, or whether implantation has occured.
Look. I’m not trying to argue that the intentional destruction of a living fetus (baby) is not a horrible thing. It is. All I’m trying to point out is that things are not so clear cut as many of us would like them to be. Myself included. I admite that what my priest told me may be wrong. But I believe I’ve done my due diligence on the matter.
God bless,
Ut
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
The D&C issue maybe somewhat suspect however the other posts related to the priest seem accurate. Again I cannot judge the D&C issue. It is important to note the catholic does not have to know better than the Priest or Doctor. If the catholic follows the advice of either without knowledge the advice is errored then the catholic is void of sin. For example suppose a D&C was done under the guides of being preventative however later it was learned D&C’s are not preventative, then the patient was without sin due to lack of knowledge. Remember sin requires knowledge, intent, and commitment
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theengel
Guest
So is the D&C done specifically to prevent pregnancy or is it a medical procedure to fight something else (like infection)?
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kage_ar
Guest
D and C is a medical procedure where the cervix is dialated and then the inside of the uterus is scraped.
It can be done to remove tissue after a miscarriage to prevent an infection from the tissue. I cannot fathom how scraping the utereus would prevent someone from an STD after rape, it would make sense that opening the cervix and the scraping would raise the chance of open wounds and virus getting to the bloodstream.
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utunumsint
Guest
D and C could be done for reasons to prevent infection if one were reasonably certain that there was no conception.
But it seems as though my priest’s information is out of date. At least as far as the American council of bishops is concerned. Before 1994, D and Cs were permitted within 12 hours of a rape. But this is no longer the case.
books.google.com/books?id=RLzl97KJIVcC&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=dilatation+and+curettage+in+rape+Catholic+teaching&source=bl&ots=vfM9gyxkiU&sig=JOFGJ4mAIxr1fNR4tgoRfR_50HM&hl=en&ei=cBrFSruDGs7d8QabiNhG&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
God bless,
Ut
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theengel
Guest
So why would they do a D&C after a rape?
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laomath
Guest
Wow! This thread has really been used to discuss a number of related topics. I have been keeping up and thinking about the original post, so this may seem a little off topic by now, so bear with me.
Ok, so the OP and some other posters (thanks for sharing your experience) indicate that the best way for them, short of surgery, to regulate their cycles for their health is to take the pill. The OP was not interested in the combo pill because of breastfeeding side effects and not interested in the mini pill because it can sometimes cause an early abortion.
Maybe the solution is not solely to use or not use ABC. Maybe the solution is behind secret door number 3.
Let us assume, first of all, that the pill really is the best medicine for the problem. Let us also assume (I think its a reasonable assumption based on the OP’s posts) that the intent is really to fix some sort of problem, and not for contraceptive purposes. I propose, and I am by no means an expert or moral theologian, that you could use the min-pill if you, your wife and your doctor prayerfully decide that it is truly the best choice for you. However, I propose that you would be morally obligated to practice periodic abstinence during her now regular cycle to make sure that no conception would occur through breakthrough ovulation. Using the sympto-thermal method, a woman knows when she ovulates because her temperature will rise during ovulation. I would expect abstinence to be from about days 10-17. You would certainly have a serious reason for abstaining since you might have breakthrough ovulation.
You would never know at the beginning of a cycle whether or not you would ovulate, so you would have to assume you would just in case. I would also say that even if you use the combo pill you should abstain because there is debate about whether breakthrough ovulation could occur. I would err on the side of caution.
These are my 2 cents after all this discussion.
Ok, so the OP and some other posters (thanks for sharing your experience) indicate that the best way for them, short of surgery, to regulate their cycles for their health is to take the pill. The OP was not interested in the combo pill because of breastfeeding side effects and not interested in the mini pill because it can sometimes cause an early abortion.
Maybe the solution is not solely to use or not use ABC. Maybe the solution is behind secret door number 3.
Let us assume, first of all, that the pill really is the best medicine for the problem. Let us also assume (I think its a reasonable assumption based on the OP’s posts) that the intent is really to fix some sort of problem, and not for contraceptive purposes. I propose, and I am by no means an expert or moral theologian, that you could use the min-pill if you, your wife and your doctor prayerfully decide that it is truly the best choice for you. However, I propose that you would be morally obligated to practice periodic abstinence during her now regular cycle to make sure that no conception would occur through breakthrough ovulation. Using the sympto-thermal method, a woman knows when she ovulates because her temperature will rise during ovulation. I would expect abstinence to be from about days 10-17. You would certainly have a serious reason for abstaining since you might have breakthrough ovulation.
You would never know at the beginning of a cycle whether or not you would ovulate, so you would have to assume you would just in case. I would also say that even if you use the combo pill you should abstain because there is debate about whether breakthrough ovulation could occur. I would err on the side of caution.
These are my 2 cents after all this discussion.
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utunumsint
Guest
Based on the google book I quoted, it seems as though the D&C was used as a contraceptive to try and clean out the uterus of the assailant’s sperm. Douches were also used. But it was later determined that this would more likely cause an abortifacient effect.
Interestingly enough, the high levels of estrogen/progesterone are used in such situations if it is determined that the victim had not ovulated in order to prevent ovulation (and thus possible fertilization) from happening. So this is at least one case were the pill is acceptable, and the possible abortafacient side effects, deemed low enough to risk its use.
Just to clarify, I have a spiritual director, who mentioned that the pill might be acceptable several months ago, but he would have to consult with a moralist first before giving us permission, but he never followed up on this. He casually mentioned the D&C comment, so it was I was extrapolating on a statement it seems as though he was wrong about.
My wife went to her old parish priest during a crisis situation three weeks ago and he did consult with the canon lawyer priest, who just finished his doctorate in Rome. He is the one who gave us permission on the pill issue. So you can take what I say about D&Cs with a grain of salt.
However, given the number of hits on your website, I would consult with an expert on some of your pages, just to make sure that what you are teaching is truly in line with the church.
God bless,
Ut
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utunumsint
Guest
Thanks for this suggestion.
After some research though, we deterimined that progesterone only pill does nothing to regulate your cycle, and makes them even more erratic. So what you are proposing would not work. It might work for the estrogen/progesterone pill though.
Just as an update, we have seen our NFP only doctor several times in the last few days, and he has assured us that he will find another way. So we have a lot more hope now. Its too bad that it took a crisis situation to finally get access to him…
God bless,
Ut
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Em_in_FL
Guest
Good idea, but not very practical. The sympto-thermal method of NFP relies on the body’s natural response and signs during the menstrual cycle. The hormones that are in both pills can affect those signs, making even conservative use of NFP challenging, if not impossible. For example, progesterone causes the basal body temperature to rise - therefore that sign would be artificially altered, making it impossible to read for NFP.
Best of luck and lots of prayers for you guys!Thanks for this suggestion.
After some research though, we deterimined that progesterone only pill does nothing to regulate your cycle, and makes them even more erratic. So what you are proposing would not work. It might work for the estrogen/progesterone pill though.
Just as an update, we have seen our NFP only doctor several times in the last few days, and he has assured us that he will find another way. So we have a lot more hope now. Its too bad that it took a crisis situation to finally get access to him…
God bless,
Ut
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