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Petersmate
Guest
:slapfight:
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Petersmate
Guest
:getholy:
Option A: by regarding that church as being the Ideal Church, not necessarily one instantiated in any particular church :getholy:;
Option B: by regarding that church as being the Whole Church, comprising all of the many and various denominations, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, etc:byzsoc:
Option C; by loudly declaring that church to be my own particular church, repeatedly and emphatically asserting that it is the One True Church, pointing to its own teachings as “proof” of this, and not caring what anyone else says to the contrarykpeople:.
:slapfight:
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pablope
Guest
Some will try to change the subject…try to dig up a reply, some will think and say they will come back with a reply. Some will say it does not apply…
…then I ask…so you can pick and choose where the Bible applies or not and you are then making a declaration that is not in the Bible?Following the example of St. Paul, the HS will lead to humility, as St. Paul, in going to the Apostles at Jerusalem, not one declaring for himself that he was chosen to teach or preach or lead.
This is another relevant passage:
from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
I have asked also, who is the “us” in verse 6?
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Petersmate
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I guess they would say the “us” is the people who wrote the word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. Protestants always Seem to bring it back to the Bible being the pillar of truth.Some will try to change the subject…try to dig up a reply, some will think and say they will come back with a reply. Some will say it does not apply…
Following the example of St. Paul, the HS will lead to humility, as St. Paul, in going to the Apostles at Jerusalem, not one declaring for himself that he was chosen to teach or preach or lead.
This is another relevant passage:
from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
I have asked also, who is the “us” in verse 6?
But the Bible says it’s the Church… And we go round in circles.
Must make them think though
Mind you this is all after you make them realise that 1 Timothy 3: 15 is actually in the Bible. They are surprised to learn of it a lot of them.
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Petersmate
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It’s probably just the way they are trained to think. As former Protestant and now Catholic apologist Mike Cumbie says Anglican will look at the Bible with Anglican Glasses on, a Baptist with Baptist glasses on, a Presbyterian with Presbyterian glasses on and so on…
His response is that he now has the original pair of glasses.
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fhansen
Guest
They claim that the term, “pillar and foundation of the truth”, refers to the word “God”, not “church” in the passage.
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Petersmate
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And of course we could argue that preceding “pillar and foundation of truth” are the words “the Church of the living God”. I guess we speak the truth and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
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ezeekl
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My experience with protestants is that they like to ignore this verse as well as others that does not fit their theology. Another is the passage about the saved man who undergoes a test of fire wherein his works are tested. In protestantism there is only hell fire and saved people do not experience it. There are others too. What I found is that when you press them on these passages they stop talking to you. It all points to a simple fact which is that people who are sola scripturists do not know scripture.
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Dave_Noonan
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A pillar and the foundation of a building doesn’t equate to the whole building; no individual church has a monopoly on the truth. A good foundation is vital, but it’s not everything.
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Abu
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Totally false and denies the clear establishment of His Church by the Son of God with the fullness of truth.
See post #13.
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ezeekl
Guest
Paul is using architechural terms to describe the church which he calls the house of God. Pillars and foundations hold up something and here Paul is saying that the Church is what holds up the truth. Strange that Paul did not say that it was scripture that kolds up the truth as so many sola scripturists want to think. Very strange indeed. As for your statement that no individual church (denomination) has a monopoly on the truth then tell me how many truths are there? There are many churches (denominations) with conflicting and contradicting doctrines. Baptism is a very good example. How can Baptism be necessary for salvation to one denomination while to another it is not necessary? How can they all be the truth??? In Paul’s day there was only one church and that church is still here today. And it is the only church with the real truth.
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Arandur
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Problem is, this conflicts with Christ’s words about the Church being visible (not hiding under a basket and suchlike), and when put to a test of logic, along with the following option:
We’d have to ask: Why aren’t they all united (when Jesus Himself prayed for Unity–and said that such unity would be proof of Him to the world)?
Why do they disagree on points of doctrine essential to salvation?
For if they disagree in these matters, how can the Lord’s words that “he who hears you hears me” and similar statements about the Church (such as the OP’s reference to the “pillar and foundation of truth”) possibly be true?
In other words, assuming Option A OR Option B as sufficient for this is calling Jesus a liar and denying that there even is Truth.
More like pointing to Scripture, history (of which God is ultimate author–His Story), Tradition (which Scripture points us to more than it points us to itself), Christ’s Body of which He is still Head (and the Holy Spirit is the soul of), and logic (the rational expression of Christ–The Logos Himself).Option C; by loudly declaring that church to be my own particular church, repeatedly and emphatically asserting that it is the One True Church, pointing to its own teachings as “proof” of this, and not caring what anyone else says to the contrary
The alternative explanations are what…inventions of men 1500 years after Christ? Based on faulty reasoning and rebellious motives? Or dubious interpretations (among which they disagree with each other) of Scripture in isolation, absent all that other truth, “twisted to their own destruction?”
How can you have a church founded on “Protest,” anyway?
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guanophore
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But Dave, there is only ONE CHURCH!
Jesus founded ONLY ONE, and the NT demonstrates that there is ONLY ONE CHURCH! Jesus is not head over some sort of many bodied monstrosity. He has only one Body.
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Mystophilus
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No, it doesn’t: Jesus’ telling the disciples that they should not keep it to themselves does not mean that their spreading the word will necessarily generate a perfect response. Further, the lack of instantiation of the Ideal Church does not mean that no church exists, merely that what exists is not perfect.
Do people sin? Does God want people to sin? Even God’s wants are not always met.
As for unity being proof, I would suggest that the unity of diverse churches in such matters as campaigning for social justice is a far better demonstration of divine action in the world than everyone merely nodding their heads in unison would be.
Because they are intelligent individuals with free will, and are therefore engineered to come up with their own ideas, including their own ideas about how one determines which doctrines are so essential: by the Bible alone, by Tradition, by reason, by one’s enculturated preconceptions, or by some combination of them all.
By being true in what they said. Jesus’ comment in Luke 10:16 does not mention a church arguing over monothelitism, the appropriate age and water volume of baptism, or conflicting episcopal jurisdictions. His only preaching instruction there is in v9, saying that they are to tell people that the Kingdom of God is near.
Unity in essentials is far easier than unity in tiny details, for very obvious logical reasons.
Not logically, no, since alternatives exist.
Is that what you think the various self-exalting Protestant mini-sects do?
The last five hundred years of history demonstrate that it really is not very hard at all.
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Abu
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Mystophilus #33
This poster’s answer to Arandur’s vital question: Why do they disagree on points of doctrine essential to salvation?
Is the extraordinary evasion:
Because they are intelligent individuals with free will, and are therefore engineered to come up with their own ideas, including their own ideas about how one determines which doctrines are so essential: by the Bible alone, by Tradition, by reason, by one’s enculturated preconceptions, or by some combination of them all.
The errors here are legion:
This poster’s answer to Arandur’s vital question: Why do they disagree on points of doctrine essential to salvation?
Is the extraordinary evasion:
Because they are intelligent individuals with free will, and are therefore engineered to come up with their own ideas, including their own ideas about how one determines which doctrines are so essential: by the Bible alone, by Tradition, by reason, by one’s enculturated preconceptions, or by some combination of them all.
The errors here are legion:
- Free will does not free anyone from the debilities of Original Sin and place reliance on “their own ideas” as against Christ’s Church.
- Christ did not only teach mankind, but He died by Crucifixion to redeem mankind from that Fall by which mankind has been so weakened.
- By founding His Catholic Church and establishing St Peter as his Supreme Vicar He ensured that those of good will would have the opportunity to know His truths of how to live, and worship through His Church and Her Magisterium, clergy and laity using Her Tradition, and Her Sacred Scriptures, relying on the infallibility of His Magisterium.
- Those who would not have the opportunity to join His Church might be saved, through Her, if they did what the truly considered to be right and followed their conscience.
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Mystophilus
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Um, no. In no way is a direct answer to a question any kind of “evasion”.
You claim that there are (numerous) errors, and yet you fail to cite even one flaw in my description of the cause of disagreements between the churches. Instead, you go on about only one of those churches, apparently either ignoring the fact that the question asked why churches disagree, or simply misunderstanding the whole conversation.
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Abu
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The flaws are legion as shown in the four points of fact in post #34.
Fancy claiming not to know now “why churches disagree”!
Post #13 shows the reality of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, founding His Catholic Church, apart from which all other “churches” or sects are in error in varying degrees.
To His Apostles led by St Peter: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).
Jesus taught clearly: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).
The blind can lead only the blind.
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QNDNNDQDCE
Guest
If you pull out the foundation, the whole building collapses.
This is less clear in the English, but “pillar and foundation” is nominative in case, being in apposition to “Church” rather than “God.” Sometimes things get lost in translation. However, we can be certain that St. Paul does call the Church the pillar and foundation of the truth from the original language.
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guanophore
Guest
The divine elements of the Church are perfect.
Spreading the Word is an activity that comes OUT of the structured, visible Church. You are right, not all that hear the Word respond to it, but those that do are “added” to what Jesus already founded. He founded a Church that has structure, authority, and is visible in the world.
Then you are contradicting the Scriptures.
Though I do agree, that any action we can take in the world that comes from united purpose and goals is a better witness, Jesus intends for us to have that unison, to praise Him with one mind, and one voice. Settling for less is not an option.
I agree, it is our free will that puts us in a position where we tend towards disunity. This is why the Church and her doctrines need to be a matter of divine revelation, rather than engineered by man.
There is much instruction given to the Apostles that is not documented, and that has only been passed down through Sacred Tradition. This part of the Once For All divine deposit of faith is just as important as the Scriptures. A significant portion of it relates to how the Scriptures should be understood.
Acts 1:1-3
I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.
Luke 24:44-46
45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
Mark 4:34
34 he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.
No effort was ever made by the Church to put all this into writing. The Gospel was committed to the Apostles, and from them to their successors, the Bishops. The NT emerged over the course of 50 years, and was not intended to be an exhaustive compendium of the faith. It was also never intended to be separated from the Church that produced it and the Sacred Tradition from whence it came.
Yes, but we also cannot agree on what those essentials are - there is not a list of them in Scritpure either!
The Gospel was commited to the Church whole, and we are not at liberty to “condense” it into “essentials” and non-essentials. Once one begins to take threads from the seamless garment, the integrity of the garment is lost.
The key word, though, is “Church” (one). Unity will not result from each individual making their own determination separated from the deposit of faith. All that will result is more disunity.
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guanophore
Guest
People have a tendency to find their own faults in others.
Speaking of evasion…
I cannot tell that Abu has any interest or desire in understanding the point of view of others. He seems quite fixated on just promoting his own believes, and smashing others over the head with them, in the hopes that they will enter into their minds and hearts.
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