The Place of Latin in the Church

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I always find it interesting that some argue how horrible it would be to return to Latin and how difficult when Jews all over the world learn a form of Hebrew that is not the same as modern Hebrew for prayer and synagogue. Even some reform congregations are encouraging the learning of Hebrew and having more of their services in Hebrew- because it is the prayer language particular to Judaism!

If Latin was truly used as the language of the church (and yes I mean in the OF mass as well), we would not need to have the church’s within churches that we currently have in our area due to immigrant communities. The two parish where I attend daily mass have a large Hispanic population so one parish has one Spanish mass on Sundays and the other has I think 4 masses in Spanish between Saturday night and Sunday. Because we have no common language, there is not alot of interaction which could be mutually beneficial. If we had masses in Latin, all could attend and the homily could be mixed or since most of the parishes have a deacon who who is bi-lingual, there could be two short homily’s. At least we would have the opportunity to meet each other and interact before and after mass- gee, sounds like community.
 
Ohiomom said:
I always find it interesting that some argue how horrible it would be to return to Latin and how difficult when Jews all over the world learn a form of Hebrew that is not the same as modern Hebrew for prayer and synagogue. Even some reform congregations are encouraging the learning of Hebrew and having more of their services in Hebrew- because it is the prayer language particular to Judaism!

If Latin was truly used as the language of the church (and yes I mean in the OF mass as well), we would not need to have the church’s within churches that we currently have in our area due to immigrant communities. The two parish where I attend daily mass have a large Hispanic population so one parish has one Spanish mass on Sundays and the other has I think 4 masses in Spanish between Saturday night and Sunday. Because we have no common language, there is not alot of interaction which could be mutually beneficial. If we had masses in Latin, all could attend and the homily could be mixed or since most of the parishes have a deacon who who is bi-lingual, there could be two short homily’s. At least we would have the opportunity to meet each other and interact before and after mass- gee, sounds like community.
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Mass is supposed to be about the worship of God, not the exaltation of the “community.” When we let “community” concerns dictate the form or content of our worship of God, that’s when we know we’ve got our priorities backwards.
 
GloriousOrder said:
Latin offers only our very best effort of language to God, for His glorification. No language is so beautiful as Latin, and I say that with my own deep love for English, German, and Italian.
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Interesting to consider that the pious neighbors of Jesus probably spat whenever they heard Latin being spoken.
 
Stylites said:
Interesting to consider that the pious neighbors of Jesus probably spat whenever they heard Latin being spoken.
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How was this conclusion arrived at? Maybe they had a hatred for Greek as well? Or English, if they heard it the way we hear it? 😃
 
Ohiomom said:
I always find it interesting that some argue how horrible it would be to return to Latin and how difficult when Jews all over the world learn a form of Hebrew that is not the same as modern Hebrew for prayer and synagogue. Even some reform congregations are encouraging the learning of Hebrew and having more of their services in Hebrew- because it is the prayer language particular to Judaism!

If Latin was truly used as the language of the church (and yes I mean in the OF mass as well), we would not need to have the church’s within churches that we currently have in our area due to immigrant communities. The two parish where I attend daily mass have a large Hispanic population so one parish has one Spanish mass on Sundays and the other has I think 4 masses in Spanish between Saturday night and Sunday. Because we have no common language, there is not alot of interaction which could be mutually beneficial. If we had masses in Latin, all could attend and the homily could be mixed or since most of the parishes have a deacon who who is bi-lingual, there could be two short homily’s. At least we would have the opportunity to meet each other and interact before and after mass- gee, sounds like community.
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Good points. At least we should have some Latin in all Masses. Gloria, Credo, etc. to give us some union with all other Catholics, regardless of what language we all prefer.
 
MarkThompson said:
Mass is supposed to be about the worship of God, not the exaltation of the “community.” When we let “community” concerns dictate the form or content of our worship of God, that’s when we know we’ve got our priorities backwards.
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I guess I should make my ironic comments in the future more explicit.

I agree that mass should be about the worship of God. I also know that the relationships and interaction with your fellow parishioners is an important part of our being part of the church militant- the church here on earth. Those that are adamantly opposed to the use of Latin ignore the fact that its loss has meant more fragmentation/separation especially given the increase in immigration in almost all if not all western countries.
 
I live in a large metro area–Houston, Texas. We have “vernacular” Masses in English, Spanish and Vietnamese. We also have a very few special churches where Mass is heard in other languages, such as Polish and Mandarin/Chinese.

Our Co-Cathedral has Masses in the three most popular here–English, Spanish and Vietnamese. They do not have any Latin Mass there, though.

There are two other churches within a few miles of the Co-Cathedral that have Masses in Latin. Interestingly, one of them has both a Tridentine and Novus Ordo Mass on Sundays, and the other only has Novus Ordo.
 
*“An effort will be made to make common Latin chants popular during this year. With this aim in mind the Archdiocesan Coordinator for Liturgy, together with Mr Francis D’ Almeida will be organising sessions of practice in all 15 deaneries and teach all choirs some basic Latin chants which could be used in parishes and institutions. Once these practice sessions take place parishes may sing at least the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei at parish Sunday Masses on the first Sunday of the month. No. 36 of the Constitution on the Scared liturgy clearly sets forth the principles in this regard. Latin still remains the main liturgical language of the Church. In Sri Lanka we made a mistake in abandoning the language of our worship altogether. Let this Eucharistic Year be an occasion for us to resuscitate this lost tradition at least to some extent. I appeal to all priests, religious and laity to cooperate.” *

Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith
archdioceseofcolombo.com/news.php?id=1014

Latin is the official language of The Church. As a ‘dead language’ it is less prone to the inevitable changes a language endures. If all Masses were said in Latin there would be no need for all the different ethnic offerings. The language itself isn’t holy, but it is used for holy purposes (as someone else said here). By preserving tradition and keeping it from misinterpretations be can be confident the faithful will be practicing and believing in the same things we do, Apostolic Tradition.
 
ProVobis said:
Not that subjective. Sound waves are very important to the human ear. Ask anyone who is familiar with physics or Transcendental Meditation. Sanskrit mantras are given based on what effect they have on the human neuorological system, similar to resonant frequencies having an effect on an electronic circuit filled with capacitors, inductors, and resistors. Over sixteen hundred years of Latin (and you can make a case for Greek too) have managed to convert many to the faith; I would say it has been time-proven to be most effective if not the most beautiful. There is no demonstrable proof that it was Latin that converted them. That the message was in Latin in undeniable, but it isn’t logic to assert that it was the appeal of Latin (with which a great portion of the Old World was already familiar).

If you think language is not that important, ask yourself if Hitler would have been the leader he was if he had spoken a language different than German. (Not knocking German; it is beautiful too as is Elizabethean English.) What?

I’m not saying you can’t pray in English but modern (conversational) English vernacular has a lot of problems, especially with translations. It has too many homophones and its second person pronoun weakness makes it a poor choice of the most effective communication. And its meanings change so quickly and so many idioms (“kick the bucket,” “raining cats and dogs” etc) just don’t make any sense. Most can’t understand Shakespeare and many can’t understand the U.S. Constitution, even though they were written in English too. Things have to be repeated and paraphrased so that people can understand them. And this is among mostly literate people using the language. Look how many different versions of the English Bibles there are, each one claiming it is better than the others. Presidents and politicials and elites are further butchering the language and it is quickly deteriorating. Grammar rules are laughed at and yet a lot of places want to make it their official language. Well, good luck with that. I’m all in favor of the language at Mass being of a higher and more formal order. I think “thee” and “thou” go a long way to proclaiming the difference between God and me.

It seems as if there is a lot of misconceptions about learning Latin (or any other language for that matter.) It doesn’t need to be translated for you to understand it, and it certainly shouldn’t be like a sudoku puzzle to try to figure out what a prayer says. Exposure is most necessary though. Memorize a few lines, repeat a few cadences, and after a while you won’t have look at the right side of your missal to see what “per omnia saecula saeculorum” means as it will have its own meaning to you. Same with the other prayers. And that’s what we’re talking about for the most part, not major Church documents.
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**I just listened to the OF in Latin offered on the Feast of the Assumption at Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio, an Anglican Use parish that also offers the OF in Latin. I’m afraid it did not resonate with me and I am familiar enough with the OF to understand most of it. So I will continue to hope and pray that the Mass will continue to be offered in the vernacular. **
 
mickeycz said:
I live in a large metro area–Houston, Texas. We have “vernacular” Masses in English, Spanish and Vietnamese. We also have a very few special churches where Mass is heard in other languages, such as Polish and Mandarin/Chinese.

Our Co-Cathedral has Masses in the three most popular here–English, Spanish and Vietnamese. They do not have any Latin Mass there, though.

There are two other churches within a few miles of the Co-Cathedral that have Masses in Latin. Interestingly, one of them has both a Tridentine and Novus Ordo Mass on Sundays, and the other only has Novus Ordo.
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You should visit Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, another Anglican Use parish. The Anglican Use is quite beautiful.
 
Periodically I attend the OF 11:00am Sunday Mass at Holy Rosary Catholic church in Portland, Oregon. This Dominican parish offers the 11:00 am OF in latin with chant. They also offer the OF in the vernacular and on ocassion the Dominican Rite. Several times a year they let a priest come in to celebrate the EF. Great parish.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
The Anglican Use is quite beautiful.
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So is the Polish OF. What’s your point on a Latin thread? English is not the official language of the Church. There seems to be a contempt for Latin (as well as all Church documents in favor of it) theme in your posts. Latin works, jkirk.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
The Anglican Use is quite beautiful.
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No doubt it is. But do you really understand “being of one substance with the Father,” the words of the Creed? Seems as if the “consubstantialem Patri” is much more precise.
 
ProVobis said:
No doubt it is. But do you really understand “being of one substance with the Father,” the words of the Creed? Seems as if the “consubstantialem Patri” is much more precise.
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Except in order TO understand it or explain it, you have to go to the vernacular anyway (either orally or in the written page that’s in the missal). One generally thinks and reasons, ie “understands” in one’s native tongue.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Except in order TO understand it or explain it, you have to go to the vernacular anyway (either orally or in the written page that’s in the missal). One generally thinks and reasons, ie “understands” in one’s native tongue.
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Not necessarily true. I’m bilingual (if you don’t count Latin) so I can think in two different languages. I can assure you that I have a different understanding of things in one language than another. And some things are better left untranslated, else you risk a major war. I’ve seen laughable translations when I read the captions on the screen. What’s a comedy in one language can be drama in another. More to the point, though, I have a different understanding level at a Polish Mass than an English Mass or even an Italian Mass, for what it’s worth. It shouldn’t have to be that way.

I have a few problems with some of those translations in my 1962 handmissal. In the above case, they’ve had to keep it in its “consubstant” root form so you’re going to have to break it down for yourself either way. Check the new English translation of the Mass. And there are other instances of the Mass where the Latin would be preferred. Merely calling a Latin word an English (or other vernacular) word may work for a few, however. But one needs to go to the source (Greek or Latin) for the complete understanding of Church liturgy. It doesn’t make sense to suppress it entirely.
 
ProVobis said:
Not necessarily true. I’m bilingual (if you don’t count Latin) so I can think in two different languages. I can assure you that I have a different understanding of things in one language than another. And some things are better left untranslated, else you risk a major war. I’ve seen laughable translations when I read the captions on the screen. What’s a comedy in one language can be drama in another. More to the point, though, I have a different understanding level at a Polish Mass than an English Mass or even an Italian Mass, for what it’s worth. It shouldn’t have to be that way.

I have a few problems with some of those translations in my 1962 handmissal. In the above case, they’ve had to keep it in its “consubstant” root form so you’re going to have to break it down for yourself either way. Check the new English translation of the Mass. And there are other instances of the Mass where the Latin would be preferred. Merely calling a Latin word an English (or other vernacular) word may work for a few, however. But one needs to go to the source (Greek or Latin) for the complete understanding of Church liturgy. It doesn’t make sense to suppress it entirely.
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“Go to” for understanding, certainly! That doesn’t mean that we necessarily must pray using that word or that it is better to do so, because A) God understands what we mean anyway and B) it’s the person who needs to understand or grasp meaning. If we have to go to the vernacular anyway for an explanation, for understanding, it seems perfectly ok to pray the Mass in the vernacular (given that God understands the intent, the meaning, anyway). And to then argue that it “loses” something in translation when the Missal provides the very translation in which meaning is supposedly lost seems ludicrous. If everyone understood Latin, then it might make more sense (but then that’s why the Church switched to Latin anyway: most people understood it!).

And not everyone is bilingual. I am, to a degree, but I do not think in Spanish, I think in my native tongue.

I wish people who advocate for Latin would just admit that they LIKE Latin. That they want the Mass in a language they LIKE makes perfectly reasonable sense, because the rest of it is flawed reasoning, in my opinion (unless God cannot understand anything other than Latin). I LIKE Latin, to a degree. The phrase “Adoramus Te, Christi, et benedicimus tibi quia per sanctum Cruem Tuam redemisti mundum” is beautiful…but we still have to explain it’s meaning in English or Tagalog or whatever.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
You should visit Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, another Anglican Use parish. The Anglican Use is quite beautiful.
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Been there. Their Friday Mass used to be in Latin, but is no longer. It is a lovely small church.

Went to a Tridentine Mass on a weekday at Annunciation recently. There were about 10-15 worshipping, The priest was not wearing a microphone, so ALL pf the prayers were secret. Most did not know when to stand, kneel, etc.
 
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