The plan of salvation includes Muslims? Is Allah the same God as Yaweah?

[gurneyhalleck1]

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

I know somewhere in the sacred vaults of CAF this issue has been debated. I couldn’t find it though. My hiney hasn’t been in a Catholic pew for more than two days and when re-reading the catechism, I run across section 841, quoted above.

We are told in Scripture that whomever denies the Son, denies the Father. This is the case with Islam. Those who know me on here well enough know that I rarely, I mean RARELY even mention Islam. But when I come across this in the catechism (along with indulgences and so forth ) I breathe a heavy, heavy sigh.

This is a type of universalism, a type of openness to other religions that I think crosses the line. I’m seriously concerned about it. Allah is a distortion of the historical Old Testament God we worship. It is like looking at God through five layers of cellophane. Not only is the lineage with Ishmael a distortion and the view of Original Sin and salvation history, but God’s personality and his very heart are warped in the Koran to be something He is not. How can we say that Allah and Our God are the same? And especially in light of how the Koran totally rejects and blasts the concept of Trinity as evil, that only further alienates identification between the two?

I’m pretty much fresh back in the CC after a long walk in the wilderness. It’s stuff like this that keeps making me walk.

I’m sure this has probably been debated but, for my sake, can someone explain a way to deal with this horrible part of the catechism? I’m dying here…

 

[Alexander_Smith]

To be honest, I have never seen this in any Catechism. The plan of salvation does NOT include the Muslims, because the Muslims don’t have baptism, belief in Christ, or belief in the One True God.

Allah is not God.

I am currently researching this and I will reply more after I learn a bit.

EDIT: Let me rephrase this. The plan of salvation includes everyone. But the Muslims are not special in this regard aside from their connection to Christian history. Muslims do not worship God with us.

Also, this thread is helpful: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317554

As someone in the thread said, Jesus told us that anyone who denies him, denies the one who sent him. Muslims deny that Jesus Christ is God, therefore it would be logical to say that Muslims deny God.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I hate that friggin 20 minute limit for edits.

After reading the thread in question. I can understand why people say Catholics, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God. Technically we do, but that doesn’t mean we all have the truth of what God is, or how to worship Him.

 

[JonNC]

=Alexander Smith;7395969]To be honest, I have never seen this in any Catechism. The plan of salvation does NOT include the Muslims, because the Muslims don’t have baptism, belief in Christ, or belief in the One True God.

Here it is from the Vatican website:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

EDIT: Let me rephrase this. The plan of salvation includes everyone. But the Muslims are not special in this regard aside from their connection to Christian history. Muslims do not worship God with us.

Also, this thread is helpful: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=317554

As someone in the thread said, Jesus told us that anyone who denies him, denies the one who sent him. Muslims deny that Jesus Christ is God, therefore it would be logical to say that Muslims deny God.

While I tend to agree with what you say here, I also do not exclude the possibility that God, in His grace and mercy, could extend salvation to Muslims, for Christ’s sake.

Jon

 

[Hiskid1973]

Salvation is available to all who call on His name, religious or non religious backgrounds…I have read testimonies of ex muslims who had dreams/visions of Jesus…What actually does that catechism statement mean ? Scripture is pretty clear…You can’t have two different
sacred text with the same God saying two different things…Doesn’t make sense…

 

[The_Sentry]

While I tend to agree with what you say here, I also do not exclude the possibility that God, in His grace and mercy, could extend salvation to Muslims, for Christ’s sake.

Jon

“For Christ’s sake” being the key, because there’s nothing inherent in Islam or any other religion (or in any of us, for that matter) that is more worthy or “closer” to God when we are apart from Him. But you’re Lutheran, so I know you’d agree with that.

The oft-repeated ideas of “Abrahamic faiths” and “People of the ‘Book’” are somewhat ridiculous anyway, since God can from these stones raise up children for Abraham. St. Paul makes it clear that Christians are the true spiritual Israel, and thus the true descendants of Abraham. If God extends grace to Muslims, it is because they - like all the rest of us without His grace - are utterly distant from Him. They’re not “closer” to God because they claim an Abrahamic origin, and this 841 passage certainly seems to imply that they are. It’s hard to say that some without Christ are “more lost” than others. I know I’m not Catholic and should probably stay out of this one , but it seems to me that 841 is in desperate need of revision (at least) and removal/replacement (at most). Judaism must be addressed in any catechism setting for very obvious reasons, but elevating/recognizing/favoring one non-Biblical religion over another doesn’t seem like it should even be catechism material.

Praying for ya, Gurney…it’s Christmas Eve, and your spirit is troubled. I pray that our Lord will show you some answers to these hard matters!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks so much, brother. I couldn’t agree more with all you’ve said here. I do NOT feel that Muslims are part of the economy of salvation. I’m sure some of them “can” be saved and invincible ignorance I’m ok with but for goodness sakes the catechism takes it further than that. “The plan of salvation includes those who acknowledge the creator…” I think salvation involves more than an acknowledgment. Satan even acknowledges who God is. Certainly Satan isn’t heading up to the pearly gates! “…in the first place of whom are the Muslims.” This TROUBLES ME dearly. It’s just awful! The “first place?” what??? It’s like a prime seat at the front for people who OPENLY and proudly reject Christ as the Son of God AND the saviour of the world. This bugs the crud out of me, man! …“and together with us…” that bugs me as well.

It seems to me the Catholics of the Crusades are not the Catholics of the Twentieth Century? We fought the Muslims for control of the Holy Land. I guess now we should give it over to them since they’re Abrahamic and co-partners in salvation!

This bugs me to no end…

“For Christ’s sake” being the key, because there’s nothing inherent in Islam or any other religion (or in any of us, for that matter) that is more worthy or “closer” to God when we are apart from Him. But you’re Lutheran, so I know you’d agree with that.

The oft-repeated ideas of “Abrahamic faiths” and “People of the ‘Book’” are somewhat ridiculous anyway, since God can from these stones raise up children for Abraham. St. Paul makes it clear that Christians are the true spiritual Israel, and thus the true descendants of Abraham. If God extends grace to Muslims, it is because they - like all the rest of us without His grace - are utterly distant from Him. They’re not “closer” to God because they claim an Abrahamic origin, and this 841 passage certainly seems to imply that they are. It’s hard to say that some without Christ are “more lost” than others. I know I’m not Catholic and should probably stay out of this one , but it seems to me that 841 is in desperate need of revision (at least) and removal/replacement (at most). Judaism must be addressed in any catechism setting for very obvious reasons, but elevating/recognizing/favoring one non-Biblical religion over another doesn’t seem like it should even be catechism material.

Praying for ya, Gurney…it’s Christmas Eve, and your spirit is troubled. I pray that our Lord will show you some answers to these hard matters!

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

I know somewhere in the sacred vaults of CAF this issue has been debated. I couldn’t find it though. My hiney hasn’t been in a Catholic pew for more than two days and when re-reading the catechism, I run across section 841, quoted above.

We are told in Scripture that whomever denies the Son, denies the Father. This is the case with Islam. Those who know me on here well enough know that I rarely, I mean RARELY even mention Islam. But when I come across this in the catechism (along with indulgences and so forth ) I breathe a heavy, heavy sigh.

This is a type of universalism, a type of openness to other religions that I think crosses the line. I’m seriously concerned about it. Allah is a distortion of the historical Old Testament God we worship. It is like looking at God through five layers of cellophane. Not only is the lineage with Ishmael a distortion and the view of Original Sin and salvation history, but God’s personality and his very heart are warped in the Koran to be something He is not. How can we say that Allah and Our God are the same? And especially in light of how the Koran totally rejects and blasts the concept of Trinity as evil, that only further alienates identification between the two?

I’m pretty much fresh back in the CC after a long walk in the wilderness. It’s stuff like this that keeps making me walk.

I’m sure this has probably been debated but, for my sake, can someone explain a way to deal with this horrible part of the catechism? I’m dying here…

Gurney----
Happy Savior’s Birth, You and Everyone, BTW!!!

Allah is in NO way like Yahweh/Jehovah/God. Allah is an Impersonal Deity and one cannot have a Personal Relationship with Him.
Whereas one CAN have a Personal relationship with God and Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Muslims deny the Trinity, anyway.

The Ex-Muslim turned Christian Apologist Walid shoebat has a saying as to whether a a Creed is TRULY legitimate or not:
“If it denies the Trinity, it is a CULT.”
Take of that whatever you will. But Personally I tend to agree with it.

Anyway, I would look up Fr. Zacharias Boutors on Youtube. He is a GREAT Coptic Priest who is considered “The No. 1 enemy of Islam” in the Middle East because of his exposes of the Miuslim Religion and its ingherent inconsistencies, ideologies and dangerous ideas. He also contrasts Christianity with islam. He has a show in the US that is broadcast weekly all over the Middle east that is seen by Millions of Muslims. some of it is on Youtube. I would give him a look . He does a good Job answering the question you asked somewhat better than we can here.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Merry Christmas to you, too, brother. I concur with what you say here. It’s amazing that my wife and I, feet dragging because we’re tired of the spiritual conflict, crawled over to the Catholic parish here, went back to confession, and not 24 hours later I actually had a Catholic priest (!!!) online point out to me catechism 841 and instantly I wanted to puke. I had read it a long time ago but I think willed myself (LOL) to forget it and bury it!

It’s so frustrating that one, as a Catholic, has to swallow this stuff. It should be just pious opinion and no big woop. But it really is de fide being in the Catechism and Lumen Gentium 16. It’s a troubling piece of theology that is truly chilling. I don’t like it one bit.

And when I opened to the section on indulgences I felt light-headed. I sometimes wonder if I’m just not cut out for this Church

Gurney----
Happy Savior’s Birth, You and Everyone, BTW!!!

Allah is in NO way like Yahweh/Jehovah/God. Allah is an Impersonal Deity and one cannot have a Personal Relationship with Him.
Whereas one CAN have a Personal relationship with God and Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Muslims deny the Trinity, anyway.

The Ex-Muslim turned Christian Apologist Walid shoebat has a saying as to whether a a Creed is TRULY legitimate or not:
“If it denies the Trinity, it is a CULT.”
Take of that whatever you will. But Personally I tend to agree with it.

Anyway, I would look up Fr. Zacharias Boutors on Youtube. He is a GREAT Coptic Priest who is considered “The No. 1 enemy of Islam” in the Middle East because of his exposes of the Miuslim Religion and its ingherent inconsistencies, ideologies and dangerous ideas. He also contrasts Christianity with islam. He has a show in the US that is broadcast weekly all over the Middle east that is seen by Millions of Muslims. some of it is on Youtube. I would give him a look . He does a good Job answering the question you asked somewhat better than we can here.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Merry Christmas to you, too, brother. I concur with what you say here. It’s amazing that my wife and I, feet dragging because we’re tired of the spiritual conflict, crawled over to the Catholic parish here, went back to confession, and not 24 hours later I actually had a Catholic priest (!!!) online point out to me catechism 841 and instantly I wanted to puke. I had read it a long time ago but I think willed myself (LOL) to forget it and bury it!

It’s so frustrating that one, as a Catholic, has to swallow this stuff. It should be just pious opinion and no big woop. But it really is de fide being in the Catechism and Lumen Gentium 16. It’s a troubling piece of theology that is truly chilling. I don’t like it one bit.

And when I opened to the section on indulgences I felt light-headed. I sometimes wonder if I’m just not cut out for this Church

If it’s any consolation to you…I feel ya there, Brother.

I ALSO feel doubtful whether I’m cut out for the EC Melkite Faith----Particularly when it comes to the Fasting Part.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I really don’t know much about the Melkite faith?

If it’s any consolation to you…I feel ya there, Brother.

I ALSO feel doubtful whether I’m cut out for the EC Melkite Faith----Particularly when it comes to the Fasting Part.

 

[KathleenGee]

Islam does have a place in salvation history… according to some Hebrew Catholics…

Roy Shoeman shares his perspective in his book, ‘Salvation is from the Jews’. He has his own website…also called www.salvationisfromthejews.com

 

[benidict]

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

I know somewhere in the sacred vaults of CAF this issue has been debated. I couldn’t find it though. My hiney hasn’t been in a Catholic pew for more than two days and when re-reading the catechism, I run across section 841, quoted above.

We are told in Scripture that whomever denies the Son, denies the Father. This is the case with Islam. Those who know me on here well enough know that I rarely, I mean RARELY even mention Islam. But when I come across this in the catechism (along with indulgences and so forth ) I breathe a heavy, heavy sigh.

This is a type of universalism, a type of openness to other religions that I think crosses the line. I’m seriously concerned about it. Allah is a distortion of the historical Old Testament God we worship. It is like looking at God through five layers of cellophane. Not only is the lineage with Ishmael a distortion and the view of Original Sin and salvation history, but God’s personality and his very heart are warped in the Koran to be something He is not. How can we say that Allah and Our God are the same? And especially in light of how the Koran totally rejects and blasts the concept of Trinity as evil, that only further alienates identification between the two?

I’m pretty much fresh back in the CC after a long walk in the wilderness. It’s stuff like this that keeps making me walk.

I’m sure this has probably been debated but, for my sake, can someone explain a way to deal with this horrible part of the catechism? I’m dying here…

the Jews and Christains worship the tetragramitan. the yod he vav he. the unpronouncable name. the Muslims Worship Sin the moon god. whom they also call Allah. there is no similarity between the two. despite this, i believe there are Muslims seeking God with all their heart soul and mind, and i believe that Christ reveals himself even up to the point of their death. and gives them a choice to believe on him. i believe there will be those known as Muslims on this earth, who will be in heaven with us. i do not believe that those who seek God with their whole heart will be dissapointed. this is the way i reconcile this teaching in the CCC my friend. i have a problem with it as well. Peace and Merry Christmas

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Interesting thoughts and insight, Benedict, thank you! Merry Christmas to you as well, brother!

the Jews and Christains worship the tetragramitan. the yod he vav he. the unpronouncable name. the Muslims Worship Sin the moon god. whom they also call Allah. there is no similarity between the two. despite this, i believe there are Muslims seeking God with all their heart soul and mind, and i believe that Christ reveals himself even up to the point of their death. and gives them a choice to believe on him. i believe there will be those known as Muslims on this earth, who will be in heaven with us. i do not believe that those who seek God with their whole heart will be dissapointed. this is the way i reconcile this teaching in the CCC my friend. i have a problem with it as well. Peace and Merry Christmas

 

[Sam_777]

I think GOD is merciful enough to include everyone in the salvation plan.

However, the most important question is how much each group of those people would stay in the purgatory…

 

[wwolverine]

Holy Bible is very clear when it talks of LIE. God is truth and lie has no nearness to Him. but than Quran is also clearly saying that Jesus was ever cruficied but someone else was replaced for Him. Mohammed says that that is what allah said.

Now how can that be? God hates lies, but Allah tells lies???

God Bless

 

[vera_dicere]

To be blatantly honest, I think Muhammed was pretty slick and basically built his religion around Jewish and Christian tradition to make it easier to win converts and to try and have some “street cred”.

Can Muslims be saved? Sure.

They worship A god, but whether or not its God, I just don’t know, frankly, I tend to side on the “its not God”. But I do think their intentions might save them, a lot of them think its God, and they’re lead to beleive so by others who think its God or who through their speckled history have tried to peddle it as God.

But yeah, they reject Christ, but when someone shows up and tells them Islam is the next step on from Christianity and they’re talking to uneducated goat herders in the mid east, what mroe can we expect of them?

They need our prayers.

 

[benidict]

I think GOD is merciful enough to include everyone in the salvation plan.

However, the most important question is how much each group of those people would stay in the purgatory…

very true sam. i know for myself, im gonna be there a minute. no way around it. although i realize that my personal sufferings on this earth, are subtractions for my time im gonna spend there. i dont view suffering as a negative. on the contrary. it is Christ, making me more fit to spend eternity with him. anytime it comes, i thank God, that its less time i will have to spend in purgatory. Peace, and Merry Christmas

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I think GOD is merciful enough to include everyone in the salvation plan.

However, the most important question is how much each group of those people would stay in the purgatory…

Everyone has the opportunity to be saved, but being “included in the plan” does not mean you are saved. Muslims will not enter the kingdom of heaven, however, if they convert before death, at least in some way, they have hope just like the rest of us, at which point, they would cease to be Muslim in the true sense of that word.

Invincible Ignorance is the only way a non-Catholic can be saved, and Muslims also don’t have baptism, which creates another problem.

 

[dzheremi]

Sure, Muslims can be saved, same as anyone – but if/when they are, it is despite Islam, not because of it or through it. CCC 841 is a nonsense, meaningless statement; complete claptrap that shouldn’t even be in the CCC in the first place. It is symptomatic of the many reasons that I eventually came to realize some time ago that the RCC is not the place for me, so I can definitely relate to you on that level, Gurney.