The Pope’s ambition, a powerful blend of the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite, could sweep the Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stylites
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Stylites

Guest
The Pope’s ambition, a powerful blend of the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite, could sweep the Church

There are too many difficulties attending both the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite

By William Oddie on Friday, 20 May 2011

An extremely interesting story by John Thavis – which appears currently on the Herald’s homepage under the headline “Pope’s ‘reform of the reform’ in liturgy to continue” – reports what seems to me a potentially wondrous proposed advance. But will it happen? There is a danger that what amounts to an entirely new proposal of a fresh liturgical development, going beyond both the Ordinary and the Extraordinary forms of the Mass to something possibly better than either, will sink without trace: so here’s my two penn’orth towards getting it noticed and talked about, and I hope acted on. Here’s what Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (of all things) said on Sunday:

“The Pope’s long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to co-exist, but to move toward a ‘common rite’ that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms.”

. . .

Full story: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/05/20/the-pope%e2%80%99s-ambition-a-powerful-blend-of-the-novus-ordo-and-the-old-rite-could-sweep-the-church/
 
While the Ordinary Form of the Mass is definitely going to become “more formal” as we move forward (and that’s a good thing), I don’t think it’s leading to any great clamoring for introducing elements of the Extraordinary Form. People who prefer the Extraordinary Form do so almost exclusively. They won’t be pleased with some hybrid. People who prefer to the Ordinary Form also do so almost exclusively. They too won’t be pleased with the introduction of elements they don’t care for.
 
NewEnglandPries said:
While the Ordinary Form of the Mass is definitely going to become “more formal” as we move forward (and that’s a good thing), I don’t think it’s leading to any great clamoring for introducing elements of the Extraordinary Form. People who prefer the Extraordinary Form do so almost exclusively. They won’t be pleased with some hybrid. People who prefer to the Ordinary Form also do so almost exclusively. They too won’t be pleased with the introduction of elements they don’t care for.
Click to expand...
I would tend to agree, Father. Since liturgical authority is so centralized these days (as opposed to before the Council of Trent) and since almost every possible question regarding what to do at Mass has been legislated, it is very difficult to have any “grass roots” development in the liturgy. So, there will always be the question of how “the people” will accept changes and follow instructions.

Any sort of hybrid, in my opinion, would have to develop over the course of decades or even centuries and be inspired, to a certain extent, by the legitimate practices of the faithful. But then, again, the faithful are highly regulated in the liturgy and development is very difficult. While it might be the ultimate desire of the Pope, I doubt he will promulgate this sort of hybrid Rite. It’s too much, too soon. “Moving toward” it, yes, certainly.

That being said, I regularly attend both forms of Mass. I wouldn’t mind seeing a third option…something along the lines of the “missal” of 1965, with a “re-updated” calendar and readings, etc.

Dan
 
I think this will be great. I have heard people, even bishops speaking of this, and I think an mix of the OF and EF would be wonderful. The rubics in the OF are often unclear.
 
I seriously doubt that any of us will see such a thing in our lifetime. However, that may be the direction of the church in time. I would also bet that the EF will be around for many centuries after we are all gone.
 
I tend to lean more on the Traditional side and I think this would be great. I attend an OF mass that is like this anyways and love it. I love our Pope.
 
I am most interested in seeing the responses we get on this. I have only known the Mass in its current form. (Novus Ordo) Vatican II hapened a few years before I was born. I would like to see some of the older ways come back. The Altar rail, Communion on the tongue while kneeling to name a few. I have heard this from my mom and she says she misses these things. I really like history and tradition. I believe that is something that the Church is slowly letting slide away in the name of convenience here in America. I know that I am old fashioned. I tell myself all the time I was born 150yrs to late 😃
 
i miss the Latin Mass, and all the old things i miss women wearing hats and men wearing suits and kids quiet and respectful, i miss it all…
 
duneman said:
i miss the Latin Mass, and all the old things i miss women wearing hats and men wearing suits and** kids quiet and respectful**, i miss it all…
Click to expand...
The cry rooms had a lot to do with that 😃

Also Mom’s threat of turning the mass into a requiem mass if we acted up 😃
 
My wish really is to have the EF and OF exist together, not side by side. What I mean by this is that all parishes would say one form over the other depending on the occasion, like the EF exclusively during solemnities, and the OF exclusively during most other times of the year. They will be like the High Mass and Low Mass. What happens now is that those who prefer one form stay with one form exclusively, thus the Church doesn’t look united.
 
duneman said:
i miss the Latin Mass, and all the old things i miss women wearing hats and men wearing suits and kids quiet and respectful, i miss it all…
Click to expand...
I remember the hats/veils thing, even though it ended when I was about in 2nd grade. I also remember another thing - those little clips on the backs of the pews for men to hang their hats.

This got me thinking about how those things are connected to civility. I really miss men wearing hats. I’m approaching mid-life now, but surely miss seeing my Dad (who recently passed away) going to work with a suit jacket, tie and HAT! It was more than a hat though-
it was not only a symbol of a gentleman, but also a means of actually conveying respect to others. For instance, a repectful tip of the hat when greeting others, the removal of it to show respect in various situations - including Mass.

We are certainly a more disrespectful people now - and it shows up everywhere, even at church.
 
Sarika said:
I also remember another thing - those little clips on the backs of the pews for men to hang their hats.
Click to expand...
Ohhh!!! Is that what those were for? I saw them at an old parish, and they used them for rosaries, but I guessed they were probably for something else. At least originally.
 
TheMc said:
This is the kind of clip I was thinking of.
Click to expand...
Yes, but those things are not really hat clips - in a post-hat era of fashion and foppishness, they’re there for small kids to press and wonder about. 🙂
 
“The Pope’s long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to co-exist, but to move toward a ‘common rite’ that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms.”
Click to expand...
I think it’s way too soon to be thinking this. Shouldn’t we find “commonness” amongst all the different ways the new form is being celebrated first? For example, I achieve a totally different spirituality level at a Polish Mass than an English Mass or an Italian Mass or a Spanish Mass. Or even at one English parish vs another English parish. Why is this?
 
NewEnglandPries said:
While the Ordinary Form of the Mass is definitely going to become “more formal” as we move forward (and that’s a good thing), I don’t think it’s leading to any great clamoring for introducing elements of the Extraordinary Form. People who prefer the Extraordinary Form do so almost exclusively. They won’t be pleased with some hybrid. People who prefer to the Ordinary Form also do so almost exclusively. They too won’t be pleased with the introduction of elements they don’t care for.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree, Father. Some of the older people who attend the EF Mass I go to, those who were alive in the late 60’s, actually stopped going to Mass for a few years because they disliked the changes so much. (NB. I’m not trying to justify anything, just repeating what I know.) They only started going again when they heard there was a priest still celebrating the pre-VII Mass - one man I know used to drive several hundred miles every weekend with about 8 children to get to an EF Mass rather than attend the OF. Even now, some of them will either avoid the OF completely or only attend if they have to. One or two would be OK with e.g. a few extra prefaces and perhaps limited use of the vernacular, but I don’t think very many would be happy with some kind of via media between OF and EF.
 
Mark1970 said:
I tend to agree, Father. Some of the older people who attend the EF Mass I go to, those who were alive in the late 60’s, actually stopped going to Mass for a few years because they disliked the changes so much. (NB. I’m not trying to justify anything, just repeating what I know.) They only started going again when they heard there was a priest still celebrating the pre-VII Mass - one man I know used to drive several hundred miles every weekend with about 8 children to get to an EF Mass rather than attend the OF. Even now, some of them will either avoid the OF completely or only attend if they have to. One or two would be OK with e.g. a few extra prefaces and perhaps limited use of the vernacular, but I don’t think very many would be happy with some kind of via media between OF and EF.
Click to expand...
As one of those “older folks” alive in the late 60’s, I heard and saw the confusion of the change. Calmer heads reminded us that we are to follow the Pope and the bishops in this matter because it is not sin and why would we stop receiving the body and blood of Jesus just because the mass is in English now. Let time show God’s will. Also, we have our private devotions in any language we desire.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top