The Pope - a fool, a fraudster, or father?

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C.S. Lewis coined the phrase that Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic or Lord, in response to any ideas that He is simply a good man or a wise teacher. Our Lord does not give us that option, because He teaches people to follow Him and trust in His power and His divinity. If He’s not really God, then He’s either evil or a madman.

It occurs to me that the same is true of the Papacy. I know that recently, particularly since the enormous popularity of John Paul II’s papacy, many protestants have begun to see the Pope as a good figurehead for global Christianity, but not infallible. The Anglicans tend to take the view that the Pope is the first among equals of the world’s bishops, and so his opinions should be taken seriously, but are not infallible. The Orthodox Church sees the Papacy in a similar role, as having primacy of honour over the other patriarchs, but not the right to over-rule them. These views are not consistent with the Pope’s self-understanding, and his exercise of his office in practice, now or historically.

The fact remains, however, that the Pope exercises his office as though he were the head over the whole Church, with an infallible teaching charism. This is true of Benedict XVI, it was true of John Paul II, and of every other pope, back at least as far as Vatican I.

That’s why the East/West schism was couched in such harsh terms. The Pope wasn’t just in disagreement with the patriarchs, he was anathema. Likewise, the Westminster Confession, which both the Church of England and Church of Scotland signed up to in the 17th century, calls the Pope the anti-Christ. These are valid and understandable positions.

Either the Pope is who he says he is, the successor of St Peter, the Vicar of Christ, with the God-given office of governing the whole Christian Church on earth, or he is a usurper, claiming for himself a power which properly belongs only to Christ Himself, working through His Holy Spirit in the hearts of each individual believer. Either he is deluded, and surrounds himself with deluded followers, or he is an evil dictator who has seized control of a large portion of Christ’s church and perverted it, or he is in fact the Holy Father, the earthly shepherd of Christ’s flock.

There really isn’t any middle ground on this.
 
C.S. Lewis coined the phrase that Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic or Lord, in response to any ideas that He is simply a good man or a wise teacher. Our Lord does not give us that option, because He teaches people to follow Him and trust in His power and His divinity. If He’s not really God, then He’s either evil or a madman.

It occurs to me that the same is true of the Papacy. I know that recently, particularly since the enormous popularity of John Paul II’s papacy, many protestants have begun to see the Pope as a good figurehead for global Christianity, but not infallible. The Anglicans tend to take the view that the Pope is the first among equals of the world’s bishops, and so his opinions should be taken seriously, but are not infallible. The Orthodox Church sees the Papacy in a similar role, as having primacy of honour over the other patriarchs, but not the right to over-rule them. These views are not consistent with the Pope’s self-understanding, and his exercise of his office in practice, now or historically.

The fact remains, however, that the Pope exercises his office as though he were the head over the whole Church, with an infallible teaching charism. This is true of Benedict XVI, it was true of John Paul II, and of every other pope, back at least as far as Vatican I.

That’s why the East/West schism was couched in such harsh terms. The Pope wasn’t just in disagreement with the patriarchs, he was anathema. Likewise, the Westminster Confession, which both the Church of England and Church of Scotland signed up to in the 17th century, calls the Pope the anti-Christ. These are valid and understandable positions.

Either the Pope is who he says he is, the successor of St Peter, the Vicar of Christ, with the God-given office of governing the whole Christian Church on earth, or he is a usurper, claiming for himself a power which properly belongs only to Christ Himself, working through His Holy Spirit in the hearts of each individual believer. Either he is deluded, and surrounds himself with deluded followers, or he is an evil dictator who has seized control of a large portion of Christ’s church and perverted it, or he is in fact the Holy Father, the earthly shepherd of Christ’s flock.

There really isn’t any middle ground on this.
Great post. That is all I can offer as I believe that His Holiness as with all his predecessors are What the Church Teaches, successor to the chair of St. Peter, and Christ Vicar. I see those that are non in union with Rome as blinded to the truth of Papal authority and what that truly means.
 
Just one more thing I’d add, Matthew 7:17, by their fruits you shall know them, for no good tree bears evil fruit, neither does an evil tree bear good fruit.

If protestants are willing to acknowledge the good of John Paul II as a faithful Christian leader, then they can’t at the same time call him the anti-Christ (though of course Dr Paisley famously did just that in the European Parliament). That really only leaves one option 👍
 
Just one more thing I’d add, Matthew 7:17, by their fruits you shall know them, for no good tree bears evil fruit, neither does an evil tree bear good fruit.

If protestants are willing to acknowledge the good of John Paul II as a faithful Christian leader, then they can’t at the same time call him the anti-Christ (though of course Dr Paisley famously did just that in the European Parliament). That really only leaves one option 👍
What people say is no truth about my beloved pope. I thank God for appointing someone on earth in his absence, to guide the church and it’s people. Other religions are in such chaos and confusion, my pope holds it all together. He is the “glue” if you will. Just like the priests are the umbilical cord to God.😉
And there will be people (anti-Catholics) everywhere, who will call the pope names, if people want to listen, that is their problem not ours. Jesus said they will hate you because of me, and Christ is the way to the Catholic church. 👍
 
many protestants have begun to see the Pope as a good figurehead for global Christianity,
How many is many? One million could be “many”, but its certainly not many of the billion non-Catholics.
but not infallible.
Lets face it, if non-Catholics thought the papacy was infallible, they wouldn’t be non-Catholics.
first among equals of the world’s bishops, The Orthodox Church sees the Papacy in a similar role, as having primacy of honour over the other patriarchs
After all these years, I still don’t get this. What is the job description for “first among equals” or “primacy of honor”.

CS Lewis should have started his own “papacy” for all the folks out there who won’t “pope” just in case somewhere down the road the Catholic pope just might make a fallible declaration.

Keep in mind that the pope gets his infallibility from the Church, not vice versa. The papacy is an office of the Church.
The fact remains, however, that the Pope exercises his office as though he were the head over the whole Church, with an infallible teaching charism.
Being the big dog on the porch is tough, everyone who isn’t the pope wants to be.
Either the Pope is who he says he is, the successor of St Peter, the Vicar of Christ, with the God-given office of governing the whole Christian Church on earth, or he is a usurper, claiming for himself a power which properly belongs only to Christ Himself, working through His Holy Spirit in the hearts of each individual believer. Either he is deluded, and surrounds himself with deluded followers, or he is an evil dictator who has seized control of a large portion of Christ’s church and perverted it, or he is in fact the Holy Father, the earthly shepherd of Christ’s flock. There really isn’t any middle ground on this.
Either Jesus established a Church, as deficient as she is, or he didn’t.
 
Yes there is, he could well beleive he is the Vicar of Christ but simply be mistaken.
Oh please about this…where are the leaders of all the “other” churches? Talk about anti-Christs…
People are jealous when they see the pope and all that he stands for. Holiness, as Jesus was holy.
An unbroken link people, an unbroken link. No one else can claim this.

Anti-Catholicism at it’s best. 👍
 
What people say is no truth about my beloved pope. I thank God for appointing someone on earth in his absence, to guide the church and it’s people. Other religions are in such chaos and confusion, my pope holds it all together. He is the “glue” if you will. Just like the priests are the umbilical cord to God.😉
And there will be people (anti-Catholics) everywhere, who will call the pope names, if people want to listen, that is their problem not ours. Jesus said they will hate you because of me, and Christ is the way to the Catholic church. 👍
To guide the church and it’s people… that would be the Holy Ghost, not the pope. Read your Bible.
 
To guide the church and it’s people… that would be the Holy Ghost, not the pope. Read your Bible.
Wouldn’t the Holy Ghost be a little more consistent amongst his non-Catholic teachings, at least in the morals dept?
 
Oh please about this…where are the leaders of all the “other” churches? Talk about anti-Christs…
I don’t know what the hell your talking about.
People are jealous when they see the pope and all that he stands for. Holiness, as Jesus was holy.
I have a picture of Pope John Paul II in my car sun dash, and have a nice little collection of Benedicy XVI writtings, I have nothing but respect for either one of them.
An unbroken link people, an unbroken link. No one else can claim this.
Tibetin Bhuddists, Shia Muslims?
Anti-Catholicism at it’s best. 👍
Your paranoia is disturbing.

I haven’t said a single anti-Catholic thing here
 
I don’t know what the hell your talking about.

I have a picture of Pope John Paul II in my car sun dash, and have a nice little collection of Benedicy XVI writtings, I have nothing but respect for either one of them.

Tibetin Bhuddists, Shia Muslims?

Your paranoia is disturbing.

I haven’t said a single anti-Catholic thing here
Then what did you mean that "he could be the vicar of Christ, but only mistaken " and Buddhists (Buddha didn’t die for our sins), and Muslims (Muhammed didn’t die for our sins), do NOT have an unbroken link from St. Peter the apostle. Jesus Christ died for our sins, and yours.😦 🙂
 
Then what did you mean that "he could be the vicar of Christ, but only mistaken "
I didn’t say he wasen’t the Vicar of Christ, I was simply saying it was a very flawed argument presented by the OP, an was pointing that obviously he could be the Vicar of Christ but mistaken
and Buddhists (Buddha didn’t die for our sins), and Muslims (Muhammed didn’t die for our sins), do NOT have an unbroken link from St. Peter the apostle. Jesus Christ died for our sins, and yours.😦 🙂
No, not from Peter. They do have religious lines of sucussion
 
To guide the church and it’s people… that would be the Holy Ghost, not the pope. Read your Bible.
Hmmm… it seems you are deferring to the Bible as the final authority on this issue. Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the** final** authority on all religious matters? Chapter and verse number, please.

Also, if the Pope is insignificant, then how do you account for the fact that it was Sacred Tradition, imbued with the charisma of infallibility, that produced Sacred Scripture in the first place?

You didn’t think the Bible fell out of the sky one day, did you?

If you disagree, then please tell me how we got only (or as much as) 27 books in the New Testament today and how do you know this with 100% certainity (aka infallibility) ?
 
Hmmm… it seems you are deferring to the Bible as the final authority on this issue. Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the** final** authority on all religious matters? Chapter and verse number, please.

Also, if the Pope is insignificant, then how do you account for the fact that it was Sacred Tradition, imbued with the charisma of infallibility, that produced Sacred Scripture in the first place?

You didn’t think the Bible fell out of the sky one day, did you?

If you disagree, then please tell me how we got only (or as much as) 27 books in the New Testament today and how do you know this with 100% certainity (aka infallibility) ?
I don’t think they did - put the Bible together infallibly, that is. And it is not something that can be proved. Nor is the issue of the pope - it’s just an interpretation - it is subjective. Now I don’t expect you to agree. If you did then you’d be admitting you could be wrong and you - or the RC - won’t do that. I admit I could be wrong and I believe everyone is can be wrong as well. Humans are fallible.

As for the know them by their fruits, the RC has been in the middle of a lot of truly terrible events over the past 2,000 years and many of the pope were a long way from holy. The witch burnings, the pogroms against the Jews, the violent subjugation of indigenous peoples. You’d think that just a institution, were it guided by Jesus, would have been able to avoid some of this stuff. 🤷
 
I didn’t say he wasen’t the Vicar of Christ, I was simply saying it was a very flawed argument presented by the OP, an was pointing that obviously he could be the Vicar of Christ but mistaken

No, not from Peter. They do have religious lines of sucussion
Oh, sorry…who really cares about other religious sects with a lineage that isn’t from Christ himself?:confused:
 
This thread got out of hand F A S T… started innocently enough though.
 
I don’t think they did - put the Bible together infallibly, that is. And it is not something that can be proved. Nor is the issue of the pope - it’s just an interpretation - it is subjective. Now I don’t expect you to agree. If you did then you’d be admitting you could be wrong and you - or the RC - won’t do that. I admit I could be wrong and I believe everyone is can be wrong as well. Humans are fallible.
Wow…how reasurring! With that reasoning I guess you do indeed have doubt in your heart about the entire Bible being the inspired word of God. After all, none of the Gospels claim to be the inspired word of God. You may not even believe all the stories reported in the Gospels. Do you? How do you know with infallibility that those stories occurred?

Your line of reasoning contradicts Jesus when he said the Gates of Hades (doubt, uncertainity, etc.) would never overcome His Church.

I guess I should now take your all of your comments with just a grain of salt since you believe no one, INCLUDING YOURSELF, know infallibly if anything from the Bible is in fact the inspired Word of God.
As for the know them by their fruits,
I should just ignore this because you are not infallibly certain this is an inspired message from God.

If you are **infallibly **certain that this is an inspired message from God, then please tell me how you know this.
the RC has been in the middle of a lot of truly terrible events over the past 2,000 years and many of the pope were a long way from holy. The witch burnings, the pogroms against the Jews, the violent subjugation of indigenous peoples. You’d think that just a institution, were it guided by Jesus, would have been able to avoid some of this stuff. 🤷
You really need to learn a lot about Catholic history and theology, and not just rely on urban legend books for your information.

For example, did you know no Catholic believes that any Pope was ever perfect? Or that Catholics even concede the fact that we have had several outright bad Popes throughout history?

Infalliblity, however, is never negated because some Popes have been bad people.
 
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