The pope, apparently, has the power to send people to hell

[CrossoverManiac]

I brought the following questions to the “Ask the Apologetics” forum and titled the thread Personal peeve against the idea of holy days of obligation for, some reason I can only guess had the title changed to “How can the pope cause people to go to hell?”

CrossoverManiac:

My problem with the holy days of obligation is this: if you miss a holy day of obligation, you have committed a mortal sin and is in danger of going to Hell. My problem is how did the Pope or whoever choses when to have the Holy Days of Obligation can pick a day that, if you’re not at Mass, you can die and go to Hell. Now, the Pope does have authority given to him by Christ Himself, but I was under the impression that God would judge who would go to Heaven or Hell. I don’t see how any man, even that man is the Pope, can create a mortal sin when it’s God that sets the standards for whether or not a man is spiritually clean.

The apologist at the forum answered give the following reply
Fr. Vincent Serpa:

First of all, if you forget to attend Mass on a holy day of obligation, it’s no sin. One can’t forget on purpose. Jesus gave authority to St. Peter and his successors. “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven,” He said.

So the pope has authority to call us to Mass on certain days under the pain of serious sin. True, it is God who ultimately determines who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Some people get by because of ignorance and some ask for mercy with their dying breath. But the pope does have the authority to set moral requirements because Jesus gave him that authority. He doesn’t use such authority arbitrarily, but always in keeping with what the Lord has already revealed. In this case, it is the Lord who requires us to worship Him once a week. The pope is just extending this requirement to certain important celebrations of the year.

Apparently, Fr. Vincent changed the title of my thread to “How can the pope cause people to go to hell?” to let us know that, yes, the pope can send people to Hell. Yes, he claims that Jesus Christ ultimately decides who goes to Heaven or Hell, but he also states that the pope can not only choose Holy Days of Obligations, but also declare them to mortal sins if Mass is not attented on those days. Now, if the Pope can declare that missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation to be a mortal sin, then he, technically speaking, judging the refusal of a person to comply to his commands to be worthy going to Hell. He further claims that those days are not choosen arbitrarily, which is funny because no where in scripture does it state when Christ was born (Christmas) or when to honor all of the saints fallen asleep in Christ (All Saints Day). I have no problems with the Pope requiring Catholics to attend Mass on certain days, but there’s a big difference between declaring Holy Days of Obligation and telling God who can go to Heaven and who can’t.

 

[svoboda]

CrossoverManiac:

I brought the following questions to the “Ask the Apologetics” forum and titled the thread Personal peeve against the idea of holy days of obligation for, some reason I can only guess had the title changed to “How can the pope cause people to go to hell?”

The apologist at the forum answered give the following reply

Apparently, Fr. Vincent changed the title of my thread to “How can the pope cause people to go to hell?” to let us know that, yes, the pope can send people to Hell. Yes, he claims that Jesus Christ ultimately decides who goes to Heaven or Hell, but he also states that the pope can not only choose Holy Days of Obligations, but also declare them to mortal sins if Mass is not attented on those days. Now, if the Pope can declare that missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation to be a mortal sin, then he, technically speaking, judging the refusal of a person to comply to his commands to be worthy going to Hell. He further claims that those days are not choosen arbitrarily, which is funny because no where in scripture does it state when Christ was born (Christmas) or when to honor all of the saints fallen asleep in Christ (All Saints Day). I have no problems with the Pope requiring Catholics to attend Mass on certain days, but there’s a big difference between declaring Holy Days of Obligation and telling God who can go to Heaven and who can’t.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)catholicism.org/unam-sanctam.html

 

[CrossoverManiac]

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Pope Boniface, like any other pope, is a man just like you and me. He may have the position of Vicar of Christ, but he isn’t Jesus unless you believe God has to ask Pope Boniface is it okay if so and so goes to Heaven.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CrossoverManiac:

Pope Boniface, like any other pope, is a man just like you and me. He may have the position of Vicar of Christ, but he isn’t Jesus unless you believe God has to ask Pope Boniface is it okay if so and so goes to Heaven.

But the power to bind and lose has been granted to the Church, specifically in the office of the pope, by Christ.

Matthew 16
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The pope is not just a man when speaking on matters of Faith and Morals.

Just some paragraphs of the Catechism. I suggest that you get a copy and read it.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are “authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice.” The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.

2037 The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. The faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason. They have the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.

 

[svoboda]

CrossoverManiac:

Pope Boniface, like any other pope, is a man just like you and me. He may have the position of Vicar of Christ, but he isn’t Jesus unless you believe God has to ask Pope Boniface is it okay if so and so goes to Heaven.

If you’re Catholic you have to believe he has the keys to the kingdom and can bind and loose.

I am not Catholic.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

Byzcath:

But the power to bind and lose has been granted to the Church, specifically in the office of the pope, by Christ.

Matthew 16
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So, if the Pope declared that murder is no longer a sin or it’s okay to worship Satan, you’d do it?

 

[CrossoverManiac]

svoboda:

If you’re Catholic you have to believe he has the keys to the kingdom and can bind and loose.

I am not Catholic.

The keys to the kingdom is the ministry of Christ. As the Pope, he is the spiritual shepherd for the sheep in the Church. He isn’t the Judge nor does he set the standards by which the sheep are to be judged.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CrossoverManiac:

So, if the Pope declared that murder is no longer a sin or it’s okay to worship Satan, you’d do it?

No, as the pope could not do so.

The pope, as the Magistrum is, is protected from teaching error such as that.

If a man did such a thing it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not truely the pope.

The pope can not create new dogma nor change dogma that is. Murder and worshiping Satan goes against the Ten Commandments.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CrossoverManiac:

The keys to the kingdom is the ministry of Christ. As the Pope, he is the spiritual shepherd for the sheep in the Church. He isn’t the Judge nor does he set the standards by which the sheep are to be judged.

Where do you get this from? Where Peter is given the Keys he is told, by Christ, that he has the power to bind and loose on earth and that this will carry over to Heaven.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

ByzCath:

No, as the pope could not do so.

The pope, as the Magistrum is, is protected from teaching error such as that.

If a man did such a thing it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not truely the pope.

The pope can not create new dogma nor change dogma that is. Murder and worshiping Satan goes against the Ten Commandments.

So, we’ve established that the Pope’s power isn’t absolute. He can not nullify the law of God. Then how come you believe he has authority to add on and set the standard for a person to enter Heaven?

 

[CrossoverManiac]

ByzCath:

Where do you get this from? Where Peter is given the Keys he is told, by Christ, that he has the power to bind and loose on earth and that this will carry over to Heaven.

Because it’s God who decides your eternal fate, not a flawed human being, no matter what position of power he holds.

 

[svoboda]

CrossoverManiac:

The keys to the kingdom is the ministry of Christ. As the Pope, he is the spiritual shepherd for the sheep in the Church. He isn’t the Judge nor does he set the standards by which the sheep are to be judged.

What about that passage “the sins you forgive are forgiven, the sins you retain are retained” I’m sure some Catholics can provide the exact wording and reference?

I don’t believe any man can have that kind of power. If God is going to condem people to hell because the Pope said to come to mass and they chose not to… hmmmm…

Maybe hell wont’ be such a bad place, so many good people willb e there.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CrossoverManiac:

So, we’ve established that the Pope’s power isn’t absolute. He can not nullify the law of God. Then how come you believe he has authority to add on and set the standard for a person to enter Heaven?

God’s Law does.

But he doesn’t add on. Again, dogma is dogma.

The mortal sin on not fulfilling ones Sunday/Holy Day Obligation is the same one that is violated if one worships Satan.

That is one of the Ten Commandments. That would be worshiping God and only God.

If you believe as you do, then why do you call yourself Catholic?

The Catholic Church teaches as it does, and always has. If you disagree with what it teaches then why be Catholic?

CrossoverManiac:

Because it’s God who decides your eternal fate, not a flawed human being, no matter what position of power he holds.

And who is to say that God will not honor the promise He gave though Christ?

Seems to me that you are the one limiting God here.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

svoboda:

What about that passage “the sins you forgive are forgiven, the sins you retain are retained” I’m sure some Catholics can provide the exact wording and reference?

I have no problem with confessing your sins to a priest. But it’s still God deciding what the sin is and what isn’t. I have a lot of problems with a person deciding what is a sin, and I don’t mean reading the Bible and teaching what God states is a sin. I mean declaring missing Mass on a certain day a sin, and a mortal sin at that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

CrossoverManiac:

I have no problem with confessing your sins to a priest. But it’s still God deciding what the sin is and what isn’t. I have a lot of problems with a person deciding what is a sin, and I don’t mean reading the Bible and teaching what God states is a sin. I mean declaring missing Mass on a certain day a sin, and a mortal sin at that.

Again, missing Mass on a Sunday for no good reason is a sin against one of the commandments, so it is in the Bible.

Also, as Catholics, we have more than just the Bible, we have Tradition. Which this also stands on.

 

[PureGrace]

The pope does not have the power to send anyone to hell. Yes, our faith requires that we submit to his authority, but if we choose not to, we are making the choice not to submit. People who deliberately choose to ignore the teachings of the of the Roman Catholic Church (ie the Gospel of Christ) and, of course, the teachings of the pontiff concerning faith and morals when they know these teachings to be true are making the choice to defy Christ. The defiant individual has used his free will to turn away from God and the teachings of Christ and chooses Hell for himself by choosing to be disobediant. Period. I honestly cannot see the fuss.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

ByzCath:

God’s Law does.

But he doesn’t add on. Again, dogma is dogma.

The mortal sin on not fulfilling ones Sunday/Holy Day Obligation is the same one that is violated if one worships Satan.

Missing Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation does not amount to Satan worship.

That is one of the Ten Commandments. That would be worshiping God and only God.

But why this day, why December 8. Why not December 7 or 9? Do you know the actual day Jesus was born? If we’re not worshipping on that exact day, does that mean we go to Hell?

If you believe as you do, then why do you call yourself Catholic?

If I don’t believe 100% of everything taught to me by a person, I’m a heretic. I thought that attitude went out with the Spanish Inquisition.

The Catholic Church teaches as it does, and always has. If you disagree with what it teaches then why be Catholic?

Oh I have to perform self-lobotomy and accept everything that comes from the mouth of the Pope or I’m not a good catholic. Yeah, that’s a good attitude to have there. It’s the same attitude that lead to the Spanish Inquisitions, Protestantism, and Galileo getting tossed in prison for saying the wrong thing.

And who is to say that God will not honor the promise He gave though Christ?

Seems to me that you are the one limiting God here.

The Bible states that it is Christ, not man that will judge the living and the dead.

 

[svoboda]

CrossoverManiac:

I have no problem with confessing your sins to a priest. But it’s still God deciding what the sin is and what isn’t. I have a lot of problems with a person deciding what is a sin, and I don’t mean reading the Bible and teaching what God states is a sin. I mean declaring missing Mass on a certain day a sin, and a mortal sin at that.

If God sends good people to hell because they didn’t listen to the pope, I’d be glad to go there along with them. And you should be too, who wants to spend eternity with a God like that anyway?

 

[CrossoverManiac]

ByzCath:

Again, missing Mass on a Sunday for no good reason is a sin against one of the commandments, so it is in the Bible.

Strawman fallacy. I never said anything about Mass on Sunday. At least there is precedence in the Scripture (day of Christ’s resurrection, the new Sabbath the apostles celebrated).

Also, as Catholics, we have more than just the Bible, we have Tradition. Which this also stands on.

Jesus was critical of tradition when it went against God. I don’t see Jesus going along with considering it a mortal sin to miss Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

svoboda:

If God sends good people to hell because they didn’t listen to the pope, I’d be glad to go there along with them. And you should be too, who wants to spend eternity with a God like that anyway?

Not so fast. I’m not arguing that the Pope has no authority on Earth. My argument is that he oversteps his authority if he invent new sins out of no where.