Seems strange but what is the point of being in union with a pope that could not “serve” . We are all in union with the gospel but to be in union with a head bishop in that he is rendered head bishop is mute if he would not serve authoritatively.
Sorry for the late reply, I had to be away for awhile. I would say, ultimately, the Holy Spirit. I know Roman Catholics would not disagree with this, but would say that the Holy Spirit maintains unity through the pope. While not denying that this is sometimes the case, as an Orthodox Christian I question whether any one church office be be located as the source of unity. I think the Holy Spirit uses different means at different times. From the Orthodox pov, the Ecumenical Council is perhaps the most common tool for that.
There are some Orthodox which consider the council which decided in favor of Palamas as an ecumenical council; it certainly is authoritative for most Orthodox. It is true that the Orthodox have been wary of calling any council since the East-West schism “ecumenical”. We seem to have endured for all that. And I will note that some Roman Catholic writers, and at least one pope, have seemed wary of using the term “ecumenical” to describe the western councils since the schism. At the 700th anniversary of Lyons II, Pope Paul VI referred to it as (I believe) a “western council”.
But, again, the “primary” source of unity failed.
In the case of the Orthodox, there is unity of faith, although not of jurisdictions. I spent almost 30 years as a Roman Catholic, and, in my experience, there was less than perfect unity of faith there.
I don’t believe Constantinople has ever made claims of universal jurisdiction. That is solely the claim of Rome.
I wonder what would have happened if the Israelites had baled every time there were troubles, setbacks and scandal in the OT?
There is a difference between people dissenting from a church authority - Catholics - and a church authority that itself dissents from what was once universally held Christian doctrine - most Protestant denominations. The Magisterium is a reliable guide. It is equally reliable every year. It would not be less reliable if one year only 1% of Catholics followed it. It would not be more reliable if the next year 99% of Catholics, or even of all Christians, followed it.
Hi commenter: I agree. it seems to me that no mater who has authority there will those who for whatever reason under the sun decide not to abide or accept that authority over them. Whether it is the CC or some Protestant denomination, some will accept the authority and some will not. Some will accept the doctrines that have been accepted in the CC since Christianity began and others will not, due to our modern day acceptance of what was not acceptable in the past. there is a lack of morals and ethic’s in our modern day that was not accepted by CC officials and by most of the laity, While its ok to have tolerance of others; their beliefs etc. tolerance has become at least in my mind to mean acceptance of that which was not accepted in the past because it was unethical and immoral. I wonder where it will all go if we somehow decide that what has been taught first by Jesus Himself and then by the Apostles and passed on over the centuries as a deposit of faith is tossed out as old fashioned or out of touch with modern thinking.
An so have ecumenical councils … Your point?
My point, again, is that it seems from history that the papacy has not served the function of being a guarantor of unity even within the western church “united to Rome” that it has often been presented as by RC apologists. Again, we’re not talking here about “revolts” from the papacy, such as “the Protestant Revolt”. We’re talking about the “Great” (western) schism where it is undisputed that all the putative popes had externally valid claims and there were Catholics of good faith on all sides. But there was not unity until it was restored by a council.
It’s pretty much a chicken or egg question… the primary SOURCE of unity is the Eucharist. The Pope of Rome upholds the Unity of the Church in his role as Head of the Universal (Catholic) Church and Supreme Head of the College of Bishops (Pontiff).
Externally, it could be said in one way that all claimants looked legitimate but in reality, it really shouldn’t have even got to the point that it got as the story was simple : a roman pope is elected. Then runs the church for some time and a group of cardinals don’t like the way he does things, so they go to Avignon and hold a robber conclave (even though there already is a pope) and elect an antipope. Its quite miraculous how the Avignon popes even managed to get people to support them
The most charitable way I can describe that logic is “circular”. The pope was chosen by the council, therefore the council is the source of sacerdotal unity (as the RC historian I quoted in my first post said).Of course. One is an individual and one is a church that dissents. Both dissent from long held doctrine, practice that was universal (other than orthodox).
Yes and ? Adding a pope to the litany of truth bearers that one can rebel against changes nothing. More authoritative guns laws won’t stop criminals from using guns, and only bind law abiding citizens.
That the pope is authoritative and helps Catholic unity does not make it transfer to helping Protestant problem. As you said there is Scripture, traditions, predecessors, and natural law to buck against .Those things are not spineless.
Understand. Compromising problems go deeper than not having a pope, a top down approach. I would not want to undermine the importance of the deeper things in Christ and lack thereof that lead to compromise.
The church recognized its need for that ground and so acted to restore it. The ground of unity was restored, the Holy Spirit won the day, the fear concerning loss of headship was abated.
I’ve always thought it strange that the so called lack of a ecumenical council is evidence of a lack of unity. How many councils have the Orthodox had since the Schism? Moreover how many have we had that completely destroyed a centuries old liturgy in the course of a few years. If this is the ground of unity you can keep it lol.
