The Pope as ground of Church unity

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rcwitness said:
I see John as having the first true devotion to her.
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Sorry, I should say second to Joseph! Maybe I could say first ‘adoptive’ devotion to her 🤷

Now, back to the crazy train Office of the Pope!

A point I tried to make about Jesus devoting so much focus on Peter for the sake of the unity of the twelve and therfore the whole body, should be the focus of us to whoever sits in Peter’s office, as a Universal Congregation.

The burden is heavy for Francis, yet as much as he is an example of giving his anxieties to the Lord and caring for his children in the faith, that will be the amount of encouragement we receive by him.

So, as the balance of the circle goes, we pray for our leaders with faithfull works to raise our prayers to heaven with hope that they will feed us with the Word of God. And so even a crooked man in the office of Pope brings our prayers to the health of the whole body, and eventually the crooked man will be forced straight. A genuine Catholic recognizes the need for the living Word of God, the Hidden Manna which demands a clean heart washed by the blood of Jesus in order to nurish us.
 
Per_Crucem said:
While the Bible certainly uses forensic language, there’s no doubt it’s beaten to death by both Protestants (esp. the Reformed and Lutherans influenced by them) and Catholics (despite the disagreements over forensic justification with Protestants, Catholicism relies pretty heavily on it, too. i.e., merits). To which I say, blah, for the most part. Stick with a mystical, sacramental understanding, as the Scriptures do far more often than they rely on forensics, even for justification.

On this, the Eastern Orthodox have us pretty whooped.
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Amen. If we Lutherans took this approach more often, we won’t have to disagree over how wrong you are when it comes to that whole objective/subjective justification thing. :p:D
 
Shouldn’t It should be said that visible unity should not be the most important grounds for determining what is the true Communion?

Communion brings unity, but didnt Jesus express that satan is not divided against himself?

So, while the unity of the Catholic faith did have an influence in me choosing to be Baptized, Confirmed and receive Eucharist through the Catholic Faith, it was not because I don’t see a common Communion in the saving Word of God in the Evangelical community where I came from. I even first partook in the Communion with the Catholic Church when I first believed the Gospel I received through the Ministry of the Evangelical Faith.
 
commenter said:
Many individual Protestants have reexamined their own previous perception of the papacy as unnecessary. Christians in 1960 may have expected the secular challenge to be so powerful, but never predicted the response of some denominations to be so weak.
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The emboldened part of your remark is what gnaws at my conscience now. Watching formerly orthodox (small “o”) denominations morph into secular clubs has me wondering about what the future holds for the scattered sheep. I am not the only one who glances back to the Pope and says, yes, he still holds firm.
 
Memaw said:
Look around and see what has happened to many of those who are no longer in union with the Pope. Without authority there is disunity. God Bless, Memaw.
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That is what the problem between East and West is centred on. Authority! The Catholic Church sees the Pope as authority and the East has their own definition of authority. So in effect we have two authorities. The problem though is one authority will not acknowledge the other as another authority. The healing of our two Churches will occur when we will acknowledge both.
 
My Grandmother and step grandfather are Mormons, and we all know what they think of the Papacy. But my dad asked them what they believe about SS marriage and they strongly dissagree. But when their church decided it was holy to marry them, they just swallow it and pride themselves they reject the Pope. 🤷
 
chimo said:
That is what the problem between East and West is centred on. Authority! The Catholic Church sees the Pope as authority and the East has their own definition of authority. So in effect we have two authorities. The problem though is one authority will not acknowledge the other as another authority. The healing of our two Churches will occur when we will acknowledge both.
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But the Catholic Church does recognize the great authority and Bishops legitimate Teaching, Eucharist, Succession, etc which Orthodox has. But it is not Sacred Tradition to set aside the
Primacy of the Successor of Peter.

The red highlight would bring us back to having a council of both Eastern and Western Church to vote on wheather or not to continue the Papacy. It would just come down to numbers. But the West has committed herself to the Tradition and cannot turn back.

I wonder if the parable of the virgins with oil fits in here somewhere? Are the virgins these great communions who await their groom, yet some run short of ‘oil’ during the night? Is the Pope a supply of oil?
 
spina1953 said:
Hi wynd: Ok I understand. I really did not think that Rome would try to run Orthodox Churches that came into union with Rome, Do you think that the Orthodox really think that the Pope or Rome is willing to interfere with how they run their Churches or take whatever authority they have away from them? I would think that Rome or the Pope have enough on their plate to want to even try and tell the orthodox how to manage their Churches, but I could be wrong as while I think Pope Francis might not any Pope coming after him might I guess.
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I suggest letting the Pope and the Orthodox work all this out but I do know that to reunite with the Pope, they must believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with the Pope as its Infallible head. Otherwise what would be the purpose of uniting in the first place. Our job is to pray for unity as Jesus did. God Bless. Memaw
 
Expatreprocedit said:
  1. the primary SOURCE of unity is the Eucharist.
👍 Thank you, thank you.
  1. The Pope of Rome upholds the Unity of the Church in his role as Head of the Universal (Catholic) Church and Supreme Head of the College of Bishops (Pontiff).
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But the papacy itself is not always sufficient to that task, that is the lesson of the Great Western Schism. What I have been trying to point out is that locating ultimate authority in any one office or instrument, whether it is scripture, the papacy, ecumenical councils, whatever, is always in the end foolhardy. Although among those I believe ecumenical councils have the best claim.

God chose Peter to feed the sheep. The Papacy seems sufficient enough to God and its good enough for me.

Peter states to all of the Apostles brothers and sisters God made his CHOICE among us that it is through MY MOUTH to teach the gentiles.

It may seem foolhardy to you but it did not to Jesus. He is the leader of the Sheep and we listen to him.

IF Jesus did not make his choice of Peter then why did he state in scriptures that he did, and why was he not corrected?

Also why did Jesus say to Peter what you bind on earth is bound in heaven and what you loose on earth is loose in heaven, if he did not have any power given to him. What do you make of these words given only to Peter?
 
rcwitness said:
My Grandmother and step grandfather are Mormons, and we all know what they think of the Papacy. But my dad asked them what they believe about SS marriage and they strongly dissagree. But when their church decided it was holy to marry them, they just swallow it and pride themselves they reject the Pope. 🤷
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What sect do they belong to? The mainline CoLDS does not perform SS marriages, although polygamy was once ok… not today.
 
SyroMalankara said:
What sect do they belong to? The mainline CoLDS does not perform SS marriages, although polygamy was once ok… not today.
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I think you are right, thanks for that correction.

Im not sure why they had that discussion then. 🤷 It was under the ussumption that their church was accepting the practice. Im not sure if it was a sect, which somehow still remains in communion or not. 🤷

But, I appologize for that false representation of the Mormon church teaching. I’ll have to get my facts straight about that.
 
Memaw said:
I suggest letting the Pope and the Orthodox work all this out but I do know that to reunite with the Pope, they must believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with the Pope as its Infallible head. Otherwise what would be the purpose of uniting in the first place. Our job is to pray for unity as Jesus did. God Bless. Memaw
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Hi Memaw: Oh I agree with you. In the end it will not be us on CAF or the laity but the Pope and the Orthodox Patriarchs that come to some agreement and reunite. What the laity can do though is pray for the unity of Catholic and Orthodox faith and the Churches.
peace and God bless.
 
rcwitness said:
But the Catholic Church does recognize the great authority and Bishops legitimate Teaching, Eucharist, Succession, etc which Orthodox has. But it is not Sacred Tradition to set aside the
Primacy of the Successor of Peter.

The red highlight would bring us back to having a council of both Eastern and Western Church to vote on wheather or not to continue the Papacy. It would just come down to numbers. But the West has committed herself to the Tradition and cannot turn back.

I wonder if the parable of the virgins with oil fits in here somewhere? Are the virgins these great communions who await their groom, yet some run short of ‘oil’ during the night? Is the Pope a supply of oil?
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It is true that the Pope must have his place within the context of the whole Church. The question though is how to defined it. The way Rome wants it will never be accepted by the Orthodox. So there must be another way which needs to be accepted by both parties. It is very simple to understand why. Rome has no authority to tell what the Orthodox what they must do. The Orthodox on the other hand has no authority as well to label the Church of Rome as often as they have in the past. The fact is both Churches are trying to tell the other who is the real authority without realising that together they form this actual authority. You cannot have Rome as an authority without the Orthodox and you cannot have the Orthodox as an authority without Rome. So what is left? Compromise! There has to be a solution that both parties will come to accept. This other solution has never been solved. May be it is about time we look for it. Our present crisis needs it. You have 400 million Orthodox in this world and they are a proud Church. You have 1 billion Catholics in this world and they are a proud Church. If 400 million Orthodox and 1 billion Catholics want unity than it must be settled differently than what is on the books today. Therefore someone must give in so that compromise will take over. I wonder who will be the first to do this?
 
chimo said:
trimmed* (And I agree with most of what you are saying)*

Therefore someone must give in so that compromise will take over. I wonder who will be the first to do this?
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We should, with some caveats :D.

We should because we have developed centralized authority more than you.

We have been able to bring all of the Western Church and some of the Eastern Church under one Bishop.

Sadly we also have some doctrinal developments that tie our own arms, and because of this, I honestly don’t see it happen.

The only way I see as a possibility, maybe, is by amending Catholic Canon Law in regards to the power of the Pope (Which is really possible being that it’s Canon Law) and retaining the authority of the [Sui Iuris] Churches, with some caveats to be worked with the Canon Laws amendments.

But right now all I see is Supreme Power (Catholic) and Supreme Autocephaly (Orthodox), so we will remain at an impasse. 🤷
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
We should, with some caveats :D.

We should because we have developed centralized authority more than you.

We have been able to bring all of the Western Church and some of the Eastern Church under one Bishop.

Sadly we also have some doctrinal developments that tie our own arms, and because of this, I honestly don’t see it happen.

The only way I see as a possibility, maybe, is by amending Catholic Canon Law in regards to the power of the Pope (Which is really possible being that it’s Canon Law) and retaining the authority of the [Sui Iuris] Churches, with some caveats to be worked with the Canon Laws amendments.

But right now all I see is Supreme Power (Catholic) and Supreme Autocephaly (Orthodox), so we will remain at an impasse. 🤷
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Perhaps a shared authority will be the better answer. Since the Orthodox believe more in the conciliar way in administering authority perhaps the Pope will see it as well so that he will share authority with them. The Orthodox will accept this because it is more suited for them. I do not believe doctrinal developments will be any deterrent to unity. The focus of our talks need to step up to know why we were made different. Perhaps we were made different for a real good reason. I believe what will unite us will be our differences. It is very easy to understand why. Let us say for talk that East and West were made different because they were meant for each other. It is very much like a marriage between two people. Now marriage between two people tend to have many differences in any couple. What is good about this is that each person brings in the best toward this united relationship. What is lacking in one person the other person will bring in to complete it. This actually strengthens the relationship and marriage. It seems to me doctrinal differences are very much like the differences there are between two peoples who are meant for marriage. We come to strengthen the relationship by what we already know. You do not need to be exactly alike. If this true in marriage why not for our Churches.
 
Memaw said:
but I do know that to reunite with the Pope, they must believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with the Pope as its Infallible head.
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We believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with Jesus Christ as its infallible head.
 
chimo said:
It is true that the Pope must have his place within the context of the whole Church. The question though is how to defined it. The way Rome wants it will never be accepted by the Orthodox. So there must be another way which needs to be accepted by both parties. It is very simple to understand why. Rome has no authority to tell what the Orthodox what they must do. The Orthodox on the other hand has no authority as well to label the Church of Rome as often as they have in the past. The fact is both Churches are trying to tell the other who is the real authority without realising that together they form this actual authority. You cannot have Rome as an authority without the Orthodox and you cannot have the Orthodox as an authority without Rome. So what is left? Compromise! There has to be a solution that both parties will come to accept. This other solution has never been solved. May be it is about time we look for it. Our present crisis needs it. You have 400 million Orthodox in this world and they are a proud Church. You have 1 billion Catholics in this world and they are a proud Church. If 400 million Orthodox and 1 billion Catholics want unity than it must be settled differently than what is on the books today. Therefore someone must give in so that compromise will take over. I wonder who will be the first to do this?
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The way Christ wants it is what is important. And Jesus made Peter. the first Pope, the head of His Church and it has been that way for over 2,000 years and will be till the end of time as Jesus promised. Nothing can ever change that. There can be no compromise on that. The Pope didn’t leave the Orthodox, the Orthodox left the Pope. God Bless, Memaw
 
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