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Wandile
Guest
Hmmm “Pope” is just a title. Its not a position or anything of the sort. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome primarily and then secondly head of the universal church by virtue of his primacy.
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Denise1957
Guest
The word “Pope” simply means “Papa” We need to have a term, though, which shows that he is head of the universal Church. Hence, we refer to him as Pope.
And though one of the duties of a pope is to work to bring in all of the sheep who have strayed, his main duty is to faithfully pass on the Deposit of Faith. It’s not like he has the capability to change Church teachings. He can more clearly define them, but not change them. He simply reiterates what has always been taught, though different popes have different ways of doing this, and some place emphasis in different areas, which, in their view, need addressing at a certain point in time. There have been saintly Popes, and there have been sinful Popes. They are still Popes.
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Wandile
Guest
Listen, I’m a catholic so you’re pretty much preaching to the choir.The point I’m trying to get a cross is the “Pope” is not an office. There is no rank in the Church hierarchy as “Pope”. It is simply deacon, priest and bishop. The Bishop of Rome , know affectionately as the Pope, is by virtue of his primacy head of the church and all that other stuff…
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Denise1957
Guest
Thanks for clarifying that, Wandile.
I apologize for making it seem that I was preaching to you on the subject. I was really preaching to the non-Catholics on the thread.
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chimo
Guest
The drop of attendance occurs because of this lack of faith that is spreading in all parts of our Churches. That is why our Churches need to enlist some kind of strategy similar to what the Catholic Churches are doing so that a proper understanding of the faith may reach to the peoples. If the faith is not taught in the homes no matter what, the Church will not enter into the person. Our crisis seeing so many people leave is the result of parents not teaching anything to the child. Therefore better measures must be set in the Churches to enable the children to come to know of Jesus. The Orthodox problem today is very similar to the Catholic problem as well since many Catholics are not staying in Church. What can we do to fix this problem? It is to my observations that we need to pull our resources together both Catholic and Eastern and to give to our children those experiences of God much earlier and to make available a Catechism for them to relate to their experiences in Holy Communion. Since the Holy Communion is the Sacrament by which they will attend to the most we must be able as educators and teachers to work the children’s way of life in Church around this great Sacrament of love. We are not doing this as effective as we can in these present days.
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Denise1957
Guest
You mention above that we need to give our children experiences of God much earlier and to make available a catechism for them to relate to their experiences in Holy Communion. Could you elaborate as to what you mean by “experiences?”
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chimo
Guest
It is to my observations and learning from experience that children are best taught how to live their life by growing within these experiences that surround them. Since children pick up more easily from what is surrounding them by learning to pick it up without too much instruction than it is easily understood that these same experiences can be picked up in the Church. The two homes of a child, the one in Church and the other one in their own home need to find this familiarity to connect them both. Children leave the Church precisely because of this lack of familiarity. Therefore what is done in the home environment must also work within the Church environment. Since children receive much love at home than it accords this familiar love must be received in the Church. Our approaches in the Churches do not seem to connect to the children. For instance one never gives a book at a dinner table to explain to the children about love. No the correct way is for the children to experience love with their father and mother not to read a book about their father and mother. This is how children experience love. It needs to be the same for the Church. We need to connect these same children to God and to His Son Jesus using the same methods of our home environment. When we do this the children will connect with God and with Jesus just as they connect with their mother and father.
The best way for children to connect with the Lord Jesus is the personal encounter of meeting Him in the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. This presence of the Lord Jesus is powerful enough to ignite those children to want more if the right attitudes and reflections are given. It is just right to keep focus more on Holy Communion for this is the Sacrament which will teach the children more about Jesus than any other because Jesus is personally there. The focus than by the Church is to make Jesus more available to the children by using easier concepts and ideas. For instance one platform of teaching Holy Communion can be expressed through one of these illustrations. I teach to the children that when the priest asks the Father in Heaven to come down to make Jesus known for us, He sends the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into the Lord Jesus. Now when this happens this same Holy Spirit awaits for our prayers because He has envelopes with all of our names on it. The Holy Spirit wishes to send something back to the Father. So we can put into these envelopes our hopes, dreams, prayers and any interesting person we are thinking about so that when the Holy Spirit returns back to the Father, He will have a lot of mail to open up to. This is the kind of familiarity which will help them to understand a bit about the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. This is only one example but I hope the point is made. There are many other points which we can help the children to relate better to their own experiences in Holy Communion that will help them with their own life. We need to connect with them with what they can relate to.
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Memaw
Guest
There can’t be 2 authorities. Jesus only gave that authority to Peter and his successors. That will never change. It was done long before the East and West split. God Bless, Memaw
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Denise1957
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Thanks for the explanation. I can see that you put a lot a careful thought into your post. I agree that we should help children understand that Jesus is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, but children needn’t have an actual experience in order to validate that it is Our Lord, since the Catholic faith isn’t based on experiences, but rather an assent of the intellect which then informs the will. What they need to have is a proper disposition of reverence and devotion toward Holy Eucharist. One priest put it this way: we should approach Holy Communion as if it were our very first communion, and our very last communion.
Since we have begun to go off-topic here, maybe you could start a thread on the subject, if you are interested in further discussion.
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chimo
Guest
That is not what history records. The long history of the Orthodox Churches had no dealings with the Catholic Church or with the Pope except only on certain formal issues. The real issue was the Eastern Churches learn to govern themselves. So if they had govern themselves this long for 2000 years they must doing a good job. They have this authority to govern themselves. Nobody took it away from them. They always had this. So no Orthodox is going to give up something they had always enjoyed. It is very interesting this lack of history on the Catholic side regarding the Orthodox Churches. I am somewhat surprised that Christians from the Catholic Church will not come to know the interesting history of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Of course this can be said of the Easterners regarding the history of the Catholic Church. All we seem to center on is this big argument we had eons ago. There is more to the Church than this. We need as Orthodox and Catholics to make more contacts to study our particular histories so that we can come to understand each other better.
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Denise1957
Guest
From what I’ve read, the Orthodox church also had a history of being governed by Emperors, who felt that they should control the Church. Even though we had at times the same problem in Rome, the Popes generally prevailed in separating themselves from the meddling of Emperors. Not to mention that the Muslims took over lands that were previously Christian in the east. The Muslims, however, did not prevail in Europe.
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chimo
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What you are pointing out is more the Catholic way. It is the Catholic way to be more centered on what you say is this assent of the intellect. The children are never asked in the Catholic Church of what they think. Perhaps by permitting more time with children it will helped them to be more focus on the Lord. It is to my observations that there is something lacking in the Catholic Church which focuses a lot of attention only towards adults. This is not a criticism but a observation that sees the Catholic Church as a more ordered structured geared for adults. I am referring now to the Liturgy, the Mass. It is a more concise ordered Liturgy that Catholics possess. I grew up living in that type of atmosphere. As I grew older I had experienced the Orthodox way for the first time. The Orthodox way in my opinion is much different than the more orderly way of the Catholic Church. In my opinion both ways are the strengths of both Churches. One is not greater than the other. It seemed to me though as a child I would have learn more about God through the Orthodox way. The Catholic way seemed to me more geared for the adult than it is for the child. I find the Orthodox way to my liking as I do the Catholic way. I can live in either world. Yet if I had to choose what way for my children to grow up with it will have to be the Orthodox way. It seems more fitted for children. These are my only opinions on this matter and yes I would welcome to see another thread if it will help. I am a writer who has written on these subjects hopefully to bring some understanding of the Orthodox Churches to the Catholic and some understanding of the Catholic Churches to the Orthodox. I am what you will call a “combo”. I hope soon to have my books publish. I agree with you that as Christians a more reverence shown in Holy Communion will be more shown especially by those who want to receive the Lord Jesus. Perhaps this is something we can learn from each other.
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chimo
Guest
Yes this is so true. Yet both our Churches are without these emperors so that we will focus more on our relationships with each other and this includes your saintly Popes.
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Denise1957
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Yes, it’s good that you mention that both churches are now without these Emperors, but I think that it was more of a problem for the EO than for Rome.
I think that in looking to the past, we can see how God has guided his Catholic Church, in the ways which he allowed the Church to prevail against enemies. Not only did the Muslims not stay in Spain (being booted out by the Conquistadors), the Huns were also eventually booted out of Italy. Recall that Pope St Leo faced down Attila the Hun in (I think it was in Rome), without any weapons at all, which caused the murderous horde to turn back. Then there’s Lapanto, and many other instances of God protecting his Church. Maybe there are instances of this in the Orthodox church as well.
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chimo
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A very interesting history. Yes it is true that God would protect His Church. Sometimes though a saint, it is necessary to revive the Church as in the case of St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi. Sometimes an apparition of His Mother. Sometimes God would allow suffering so that a greater good would come. I am sure the Catholic Church has a history full of stories to inspire and encourage us. On the Orthodox side yes there are many examples as well. One saint of the Russian Orthodox Church, St. Seraphim prophesied that Russia would be persecuted violently and than it would be gloriously resurrected to do more of God’s will. In this case God used suffering to bring forth a greater good while at the same time the apparition of the Mother of God at Fatima encourage Catholics and many others to pray so that this greater good would come sooner. The saintly Popes of the last 100 years are a testimony to what God can do for His Church. I hope the Eastern Orthodox will come to know of them more so that a better relationship will exist between the two Churches. The Papacy is a very important gift from God especially in these present times.
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Denise1957
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I’ve not heard of St Seraphim. I’ll do a google search to find out more. Sounds interesting. I agree that God does sometimes use suffering to bring about a greater good. Russia suffered terribly during the Communist era, and both Catholics and Orthodox suffered terribly, too. Unfortunately, Catholics evidently did not pray for sinners as they should have (Fatima), since the problems which she foretold did come about, sadly.
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spina1953
Guest
Hi chimo: I agree that in time there will be unity between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. I have noticed in the canon of the eastern rite Churches in union with Rome that the in general run things more or less just like the Orthodox Churches do. So I wonder if the Orthodox read those canons of the eastern Catholic Churches, maybe they have I do not know; it might be of some help in better understanding of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches might be able to come together and reunite.
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Novocastrian
Guest
The impression that I get is that most Orthodox see (rightly or wrongly) the canon law of the Eastern Catholic Churches as something of a sham, on the basis that it is issued with the approval of the Pope in his capacity as supreme legislator for the Roman communion, and that it could be abrogated at his command at any time and for any reason.
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joe371
Guest
Not in isolation of the Ecumenical Council - right?
All 3 rival claimants to the papacy could not be valid, obviously. The question remains; did God, via the guidance of the Holy Spirit, continue to preserve His one Church regarding ecclesial leadership, aka the Papacy, via an Ecumenical Council + Petrine Office? Some say yes, others say no…
It does not appear that the pope of Rome was removed from the decision-making process. Is the following a fact: a council was convened by pope John XXIII (anti-pope) in 1414 at Constance to resolve the issue, and it was endorsed by Gregory XII (the successor of Innnocent VII, in Rome) thereby ensuring the legitimacy of any election?
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joe371
Guest
No doubt about that Jon. The convocation of all these separate communities would certainly go a long way toward promoting cohesion/togethernessI don’t know. My thought was that, if unity is to include as many communions as possible involved, then as many as are willing to send their bishops, regardless of the Vatican’s view of their validity, should be invited to come and represent their communion.
Certainly, there is a better chance of Anglican, Lutheran, and Roman Catholics, and Orthodox to settle the matters if they are all there.
And the Holy Spirit would have His work cut out for Him. For Him, it must seem like herding cats.
Jon
grouphugbut I doubt that it would result in doctrinal unity, unless the Holy Spirit guided the process and certain communities acquiesced. Wow, that would be cool, if it happened. 
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