The Pope CAN be infallible or IS infallible?

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The First Vatican Council (which formally defined the doctrine of Papal infallibility in 1868) defined Papal infallibily as such:

This is a very liming set of circumstances. Since Vatican-1, only two Papal teachingd (Immaculate Conception and Assumption) have been universally regarded as being infallibly proclaimed (though *Humane Vite *is widely considered to be a third such proclamation). There have been dozens (maybe hundreds) of Papal teachings.
Only the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are infallible Ex Cathedra Magisterial declarations.

Humanae Vitae (artificial contraception) and Bl. John Paul II declaration on the impossibility of female priests, are infallible teachings through the ordinary Magisterium. In both case, the Pope teaches on faith and morals, what has always and everywhere been taught by the Church. That also makes these infallible teachings.

God Bless
 
Somewhat, I’m confused! If Pope defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, that sin Inherits, should we accept it as a infallible teaching or not?
Javid - sometimes lost in all this good theological discussion is the crux of your question. Is there a specific doctrine or sin perhaps that you are asking about which might help to crystallize the conversation?
 
I like how St. Francis de Sales explained it. Think of a king who passes laws. Not everything he says and does is therefore the law of the land, but only those things intended to be laid down as laws for the land. Analogously, the Pope is infallible when he is laying down the “law of belief” or the moral law for the whole Church, but not in his other sayings and actions.
Only the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are infallible Ex Cathedra Magisterial declarations.
Says who? This would means an ecumenical Council dealt with this issue when there was only one instance of it. It would also mean St. Francis de Sales dealt with this issue when there were no instances of it. That doesn’t pass the common sense test.

At the First Vatican Council, some bishops wanted to define some sort of procedure the Pope would have to follow. The relator (a bishop responsible for giving official explanations of concilliar texts to the Council) responded that this could not be done because various procedures were used in the past:
Bishop Gasser:
But, most eminent and reverend fathers, this proposal simply cannot be accepted because we are not dealing with something new here. Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have gone forth from the Apostolic See; where is the law which prescribed the form to be observed in such judgments?
Granted, he is probably speaking hyperbolically, but in any event it is obvious he had more than one in mind. Throughout history Popes have often intervened to provide definitive judgments in the areas of faith and morals, sometimes definitively condemning long lists of propositions (e.g. Coelestis Pastor of Bl. Innocent XI, Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus of St. Pius V, Unigenitus of Clement VI, etc., etc.; each condemned proposition is probably considered an individual judgment by Gasser above accounting for the high number he gives) and sometimes definitively asserting a truth (e.g. Benedictus Deus of Benedict XII, Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII, the dogmatic letter of St. Agatho, etc.).

I am also not sure your assessment of the definitive judgments in Humanae Vitae and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis are accurate, since they were definitive judgments that bound the whole Church–why would they not be instances of papal infallibility? Regarding Humanae Vitae, Fr. Ermenegildo Lio, who advised Pope Paul VI on it, wrote a book about why it was indeed intended as an ex cathedra judgment by the Pope and this book received a commendation from Bl. John Paul II. I have not seen anyone refute his argument (especially not anyone as close to the source). The idea that it was not ex cathedra seems to stem from a Vatican spokesman who said it was not when presenting it to the press, but his comment that it was not seems to have been unauthorized since it was deliberately ommitted from the official transcript late published.

Likewise, the wording in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis follows pretty much word for word the text of Lumen Gentium concerning papal infallibility and it has been confirmed as a definitive and universally binding judgment by the CDF on multiple occassions.

I also think, in terms of recent examples, the definitive declarations of Bl. John Paul II explicitly and formulaically invoking the authority of St. Peter to condemn the murder of innocents, abortion, and euthanasia in Evangelium Vitae qualify.

Remember too, just because a doctrine is taught infalllibly one way, does not mean it is not also taught infallibly other ways concurrently. It can be taught by the universal belief of the entire Church (inlcuding the laity), the universal ordinay magisterium, the definitive judgment of the worldwide episcopate, the definitive judgment of an ecumenical Council, and the definitive judgment of the Pope. The Church is constantly reiterating the truth by these means.

The idea that there have only been two instances of papal infallibility is incredibly new and I am not sure where it comes from. Even those with the most limited view of papal infallibility at the time of the First Vatican Council (like Bl. John Henry Newman) did not make this claim.
 
Widely considered? So you cannot even agree on what is infallible. That won’t do.
You don’t understand. Catholics don’t care. Whether a teaching has been promulgated infallibly is really of interest only to theologians and occasionally to apologists. All Catholics are expected to follow ALL Church teaching. Humanae Vitae would be no more authoritative if the Church declared it infallible. It doesn’t matter. It would not matter if NOTHING was infallibly proclaimed.

Protestants seem to be much more interested in infallibility than Catholics. This may be due to the common but very mistaken idea that Catholics are only required to accept infallible teaching, and we may accept or reject “lesser” teaching as we see fit. That’s what I thought when I was a protestant. But it’s wrong, wrong, wrong. To the guy in the pew, it makes absolutely no difference.
 
Only the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are infallible Ex Cathedra Magisterial declarations.

Humanae Vitae (artificial contraception) and Bl. John Paul II declaration on the impossibility of female priests, are infallible teachings through the ordinary Magisterium. In both case, the Pope teaches on faith and morals, what has always and everywhere been taught by the Church. That also makes these infallible teachings.

God Bless
I think a better way of saying it is that only the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary are the only two recent infallible papal teachings that involve formally defined doctrine. There maybe others like possibly Transsubstantiation but I’m not sure about them. The Trinity doctrine was due to a conciliar rather than a papal definition as was the Theotokos doctrine.
 
bilop #21
Only the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are infallible Ex Cathedra Magisterial declarations.
This is a common misconception in that they are dogmas, whereas there are also infallible doctrines.

From Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus), for infallibility to be exercised the Pope must teach
(a) ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter), that is as Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians,
(b) speaking with Peter’s apostolic authority to the whole Church,
(c) defining a doctrine of faith and morals.

Vatican II (Lumen Gentium, 25) reaffirms this teaching: “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful – who confirms his brethren in the faith (cf. Lk 22:32) – he proclaims in an absolute decision a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.

This is the reality from Bl Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Ad Tuendam Fidem, 1998, Vatican I and Vatican II and the CCC:
The Pope’s ‘ex cathedra’ definitions may be either of revealed dogma, to be believed with divine faith, or of other truths necessary for guarding and expounding revealed truth. Vatican Council II and the post-conciliar Magisterium have explicitly affirmed that both ecclesial and papal infallibility extend to the secondary doctrinal truths necessary for guarding and expounding revelation. Thus Humanae Vitae (Encyclical against contraception) and *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *(Apostolic Epistle against women priests) contain infallible doctrinal definitions, to remove all doubt.

The three levels of teaching are:
1) Dogma – infallible (Canon #750.1) to be believed with the assent of divine and Catholic faith.
2) Doctrine – infallible (Canon #750.2) requires the assent of ecclesial faith, to be “firmly embraced and held”.
3) Doctrine – non-definitive (non-infallible) and requires intellectual assent (“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium 25), not an assent of faith. [See the Explanatory Note on ATF by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith]
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
 
First of all, you question presupposes that a pope would teach that. I say he would not. Here I am understanding your term “sin inherits” to mean that a father’s sin is inherited by his children which is contrary to scripture. Or do you mean “inherited sin” as it is sometimes used to mean Original Sin as committed by Adam?
I mean original sin. If a Pope in ex cathedra says that Adam’s original sin is inherited by his children, is this a infallible teaching?

I read before that:
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JerryZ:
The Catholic Church teaches that we do not inherit our ancestors sins, but we do inherit the consequences of them.

Original sin is responsable for us receiving in inheritance what the above poster cited.
We inherit temporal consequences of sin commited by our ancestors also.
An example of that let’s say a mother expecting a baby is cocaine adict. The new born child will inherit the cocaine adiction from her mother although he/she did not choose to.
 
javid #27
If a Pope in ex cathedra says that Adam’s original sin is inherited by his children, is this a infallible teaching?
An infallible teaching can be given also by an Ecumenical Council, and the Dogma of Trent on Original Sin is such, which teaches the personal guilt of Adam & Eve for Original Sin, but the Magisterium does not teach a personal or actual sin or guilt in Adam’s descendants. What is present in our fallen human nature is the stain of that sin in each of us – we all born sinners (St Paul, Rom 5:19) – Adam transmitted his guilt to our nature – left in a state of sin. That is why the CCC #403 teaches that Adam “has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted….”
Our fallen state lies in our human nature received sinful from Adam’s nature.

The consequences of Adam’s sin and our state of sin are the loss of: sanctifying grace, of integrity, of immortality and happiness (therefore suffering), and of enlightenment.

Baptism remits that state of original sin. It infuses sanctifying grace into the soul of the recipient and imparts an indelible character. All of the other consequences of the inherited original sinful state of our nature remain – our growth in holiness depends on our cooperation with the redemption of Jesus to enable salvation.
 
PEOPLE - it DOES NOT MATTER to 99.99% of the world’s Catholics whether or not any teaching has been promulgated infallibly. Most questions about infallibility are asked by protestants (as the OP seems to identify himself). Protestants typically have some warped misconception that Catholics are only bound by infallible doctrine (I had this same misconception when I was a protestant). Catholics are actually bound by ALL Catholic teaching, regardless of whether it is promulgated infallibly. It makes NO DIFFERENCE to the guy in the pew.

I have come to believe that anytime a protestant asks a Catholic about infallible teaching, the Catholic should reply, “I don’t know, and I don’t care.”
 
PEOPLE - it DOES NOT MATTER to 99.99% of the world’s Catholics whether or not any teaching has been promulgated infallibly. Most questions about infallibility are asked by protestants (as the OP seems to identify himself). Protestants typically have some warped misconception that Catholics are only bound by infallible doctrine (I had this same misconception when I was a protestant). Catholics are actually bound by ALL Catholic teaching, regardless of whether it is promulgated infallibly. It makes NO DIFFERENCE to the guy in the pew.

I have come to believe that anytime a protestant asks a Catholic about infallible teaching, the Catholic should reply, “I don’t know, and I don’t care.”
Unfortunately, I believe that Catholics are just as obsessed with infallibility. We should actually coin a term “infallible-only” Catholics. Those Catholics that only believe 100% infallibly declared and recognized doctrines. It’s very noticeable on this message board for one. 😦
 
Think of it this way…The Pope’s words are not final because they are infallible, instead his words are infallible because they are final…e.g. there is no higher authority on earth.
While it’s true that there is no practical court of appeal from even the Pope’s non-infallible rulings, that is not what papal infallibility means.

Papal infallibility means that, under the limited circumstances several others have laid out, God will not permit the Pope to lead the rest of us astray on such a vital matter.

Usagi
 
I mean original sin. If a Pope in ex cathedra says that Adam’s original sin is inherited by his children, is this a infallible teaching?
That Original Sin is a real thing and that the defects arising from it are transmitted to every human from conception (and not merely by our imitation of sinful parents as we grow up) was defined as a truth of the Catholic Faith long before papal infallibility was.

But I suspect you mean something slightly different, perhaps the notion that we are literally, personally guilty of Adam’s sin (which is false, and which therefore God would not permit to be taught ex cathedra).

Usagi
 
I think perhaps you are wondering IF a Pope has ever declared something as infallible teaching that was in fact in error… Check the history of the papal succession. Looks like we had some Popes that did not survive too long on the chair of Peter. God truly protects His Church. There can be no other explanation for how the church has survived for so long in unity and spread throughout the world offering love peace and hope to everyone on the planet. Knowing about the fallen nature of human beings, and seeing the tragedies that have come upon all supposed ‘great civilizations’ and organizations over all the centuries, the living Body of Christ on earth will continue until He comes again in judgement of the living and the dead. Jesus promised. He always keeps His promises! I know it is hard for you to accept this as a non-Catholic but at least you have come to Catholic Answers with an open mind, asking questions about possible scenarios where the Vicar of Christ could proclaim a dogma or doctrine ex Cathedra that would be wrong. I admire your determination to find the truth. thank you for being here.
 
I think perhaps you are wondering IF a Pope has ever declared something as infallible teaching that was in fact in error… Check the history of the papal succession. Looks like we had some Popes that did not survive too long on the chair of Peter. God truly protects His Church. There can be no other explanation for how the church has survived for so long in unity and spread throughout the world offering love peace and hope to everyone on the planet. Knowing about the fallen nature of human beings, and seeing the tragedies that have come upon all supposed ‘great civilizations’ and organizations over all the centuries, the living Body of Christ on earth will continue until He comes again in judgement of the living and the dead. Jesus promised. He always keeps His promises! I know it is hard for you to accept this as a non-Catholic but at least you have come to Catholic Answers with an open mind, asking questions about possible scenarios where the Vicar of Christ could proclaim a dogma or doctrine ex Cathedra that would be wrong. I admire your determination to find the truth. thank you for being here.
The mainline protestant denominations did extensive research into church history to try to find one instance to support their allegation that a pope did teach error. They subsequently dropped the allegation with no explanation. Today it is only the fringe pentecostal or evangelical denominations that make that allegation and these tend to be the smaller, so called non-denominational, assemblies. The fact is that the Holy Spirit is doing His job quite well of leading the Church into all truth and protecting the Church from error.
 
As I read, we just have the Holy Bible as a certain source. tradition is not a certain source and about The Pope we don’t know when he is infallible.
 
javid #35
tradition is not a certain source and about The Pope we don’t know when he is infallible.
Still in error.

TRADITION
Concentrate on this truth from St Paul:
“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).

Until you note and accept the difference you’ll get nowhere:
The reality is that Tradition is the teachings of Jesus, His Apostles and His Church. (CCC 81,82).
These are the teachings that have been entrusted to the Church and handed down from the Apostles and their successor bishops in union with the Pope.

If you are serious you will find the proof in the Sacred Scriptures given to us by the Catholic Church:
Lk 10:16; Jn 14:16; 1 Cor 15:3, 11; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 11:2; Acts 2:42.

For the infallibility of the Pope see post #26. There are none so blind as those who will not to see.
 
As I read, we just have the Holy Bible as a certain source. tradition is not a certain source and about The Pope we don’t know when he is infallible.
Where did you read this? Can you cite a reference? This is the true crux of the problem.
 
As I read, we just have the Holy Bible as a certain source. tradition is not a certain source and about The Pope we don’t know when he is infallible.
Tradition as it is used by Abu is a theological term. What is important for Christians to understand is that these are not the traditions of men. The Church of Jesus Christ is a Divine Church, with Divine leadership and Origins. It is the oracle of Divine Revelation.

If the Church was a human business, then you would be right about tradition not being a certain source. But such is not the case. Maybe you have been brought up believing that all Churches are human institutions. But in the case of the Catholic Church you have an exception. True, it is led by mere men, just as the writers of the Scriptures were mere men. But they were always guided by the Holy Spirit.

Some Christians today believe that the Bible is the sole source of Divine Revelation, but that was not true before the Reformation. Although the error is not new, and can be found in all teachers that oppose the Church in preference to a faulty understanding of Scripture. So St. John the Evangelist opposed Cerinthus, St. Athanasius opposed Arius, St. Augustine the Donatists, and on through the whole history of the Church.
 
As I read, we just have the Holy Bible as a certain source. tradition is not a certain source and about The Pope we don’t know when he is infallible.
How do you know that the Bible is a “certain source”? God did not reveal the bible as a certain source. Those writings found in the Bible were the result of men deciding which writings to include and which to exclude. There is no “inspired” table of contents in any Bible. Furthermore, those men who made the decisions on which writings to include did not claim that the selected writings were inspired. Rather they only claimed that they were suitable to be read in the Divine Liturgy which is also known as the Mass. And in case you had not guessed who those “men” were, they were Catholic bishops. Not the pope mind you, just bishops. So now just how certain is your “certain source”?
 
There are actually three levels of “infallibility” within the Catholic Church.
  1. The infallibility of the People of God
  2. Episcopal Infallibility
  3. Papal Infallibility
The first is the simple understanding that a “truth” held by ALL Catholics is infallible. I.E. “There is a God.” No council or proclamation “from-the-chair” necessary. Everyone believes that.

Episcopal Infallibility happens when ALL bishops gather in council and define dogmas. That has occurred 21 times in the history of the Church and the results are infallible.

The last, and least necessary…but the one that gets all the attention is Papal Infallibility and that has been very well defined in the above posts.
 
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