The Pope Can Modify Divine Law?

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“steve_sansoucie said:
I actually found it in one of works and provided you with the Latin translation. Thus, one could easily argue that Catholic voices do not have an answer to this and so have chosen not to answer it, but to keep it buried.
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Google is a convenience, not a tool for serious scholarship, however, I used it to perhaps expand our understanding of the word “modificare.”

I went to the Latin, then the related Italian, showing synonyms for English words. My understanding of authority to interpret God’s word leads me to believe a more accurate translation would lean towards “temper” and “qualify.”

-change
cam i are, modificare, variare, mutare, trasformare, alterare
-alter
modificare, alterare, cambiare, mutare, trasformare, modificarsi
-vary
variare, modificare, differire, discostarsi, mutarsi
-modify
modificare
-revise
rivedere, modificare, correggere, ripassare, emendare
-adapt
adattare, adeguare, modificare, conformare, ridurre
-temper
temperare, moderare, temprarsi, modificare
-qualify
qualificarsi, qualificare, definire, abilitare, precisare, modificare

Thus, anti-Catholic sites are just that. IMO you waste your time trying to enlighten them.
 
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Of course, the pope is protected by divine authority and power from error in certain contexts, and indeed he is the “viceregent”, the human head of the Church on Earth.
That is not what you have issue with I believe. The question is then about modificare and jus Divinum, the main points.
What do we mean by this? For instance, is the papacy a office founded by divine right? Here is an article on jus divinum
http://cdn.theologicalstudies.net/34/34.2/34.2.2.pdf
 
if the Roman Pontiff can change divine law then he is playing God. He does not have authority to change what God has made clear as a teaching. Example: Marriage. If a Pope suddenly decided to reinterpret scripture and declare that the sacrament of marriage is open to two men and two women than surely he would have to give proof of this in sacred scripture and explain as to why tradition has always declared marriage to be between a man and a woman and not this new interpretation. He would also have to make sure that he was not influenced by society, because then that would be the will of the people, not the will of God. But anyway, such a new declaration could not possibly be accepted correct?

As we are the laity (regardless of holding no ecclesiastical powers/authority) surely we can figure out if a Pope is furthering some agenda that is unbiblical and contrary to tradition? If the Pope changes divine law or tries to deceive his flock (heaven forbid) by “interpreting a passage” to make it seem that the Church was wrong in its understanding up unto its point, then surely he will have to provide a clear answer that will have to make sense and even deceive the elect. this is just my opinion of course.

But with all of that being said, we must remember our Lord’s promise: Jesus said that the forces of darkness will not prevail against the Church, and that is what i believe. We must protect our church and i am confident it will remain free from the errors that Christ said will not prevail.

Just my two cents.

(if I’m speaking heresy please inform me and correct me)
 
Modify can also mean “describe” (as in adverbs and adjectives being known as modifiers). Maybe that’s what Ferraris was referring to. I don’t know. All I know is it’s troubling and I don’t see how blowing this statement off as “same old anti-Catholic rhetoric” can make one look serious about knowing their faith and its history. After all, Protestants can easily label our statements about the flaws of sola scriptura as “anti-Protestant/Evangelical hate” but this sort of behavior doesn’t get people anywhere, for it just gives the impression that everyone wants to play the label game; no one is interested in finding out the truth (and isn’t that the whole point of debating?).
 
I am skeptical that a Pope would try to change a divine law, heaven forbid
 
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steve_sansoucie said:
Modify can also mean “describe” (as in adverbs and adjectives being known as modifiers). Maybe that’s what Ferraris was referring to.
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No linguist here, but yes, it seems consistent with the Catholic position of interpreting. I commend you for your efforts to make yourself prepared to defend against the accusation, under the narrow terms presented to you. Blessings.
 
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BlackFriar said:
Nobody has direct access to the meaning of revealed truth directly from God.
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On the contrary, we ALL have access to that! The long history of private revelation in the Church to the saints should make this clear.

God puts His Spirit within each of us, and promises to guide us into “all Truth”. Public revelation is revealed through the Church, but God reveals Himself to all those who seek Him.
BlackFriar said:
God does not speak clearly.

So platitudes about God says this and God says that, Divine Law this and Divine Law that have speed wobbles it seems.
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He will reveal to all of us all that we need to know!
steve_sansoucie said:
The problem is, looking for the statement is going to be like looking for a needle in a haystack, but I found it and I assure you it is there.
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Indeed! The fact that it has never been quoted, or that no one was concerned enough to refute it, is evidence of the lack of credibility it holds. It is one man, who claims to have expertise, demonstrating his lack of expertise. There are members of every congregation who think they have something unique and world shaking to say. It is a human failing that we want to be some harbinger of truth.

Ask them, if someone spoke against their religion, even if they were a member of it, if they would assume this contradictory voice was true?

Something would surely happen as God has promised He would lead His Church into “all Truth”. Popes have been known to die before they can make any actions against His Church.
 
guanophore said:
On the contrary, we ALL have access to that! The long history of private revelation in the Church to the saints should make this clear.
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If you do not understand we are talking about public revelation then I think the conversation is presently lost on you. Private revelation has no authority.
 
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The Pope can modify divine law? I have never heard this before and if this is true I certainly have missed it as many other Catholics as well.

Who say this? Who is this Lucius Ferraris? From Catholic Encyclopedia, he is an eighteenth-century canonist of the Franciscan Order.

You can tell the Seventh Day Advantists that Ferraris does not speak for the Church. Yes, he may be a scholar and a theologian but it is his private interpretation, which we have (plenty of them).

It does not mean that they speak for the Church nor what they say should be the Church’s belief unless and when they are adopted by the Pope and Council.

He was not even a saint or a Church Father.
 
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steve_sansoucie said:
Papa Jus Divinum potest modificare
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I did a bit of research to find some more details. First off, this is the page on which the sentence appears – I’ve highlighted the relevant phrase.

Notice that the phrase appears in italics, after a citation: “Petrus de Anchar [asserit], in consil 373, n. 3, vers.” This citation is a reference to a book by Peter of Ancarano, whose name is also spelled Petrus de Anchar. The book in question is probably Consilium, which, according to an Italian page I found, is indeed by Peter of Ancarano and is available in printed form at the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana. The book principally discusses a heresy called conciliarism.

After googling for more information about this Peter of Ancarano fellow, I think I may have found out why he seems to have said that the pope can modify divine laws. The explanation involves a case of marriage law, so bear with me.

This page contains a description of a controversy in the 1400s, when Peter of Ancarano was alive, involving two competing anti-popes. One of these antipopes refused to grant a marital dispensation to a couple who wanted to marry but were impeded from doing so because they were members of the same family by a previous marriage. The other anti-pope acted differently in a similar case invovling a couple who thought he was the rightful pope – he granted them permission to marry even though they too were impeded for the same reason the other couple was. Before he made this decision, this second anti-pope consulted Peter of Ancarano and asked him for his opinion.

Now, in this controversy some people appealed to divine law to prove that the pope could not grant a dispensation in these cases. Specifically, they appealed to Leviticus 18:16, which forbids a man to marry his brother’s wife. The couples in question were each a nobleman and his brother’s widow – they probably wanted to marry to keep an inheritance in the family. Peter of Ancarano apparently argued that the pope had the power to dispense with the law of Lev. 18:16, even though it was a divine law, because Old Testament laws don’t work in the New Covenant.

So that seems to be the context in which this claim about the pope “modifying divine law” appears: it is a reference to the pope’s power to dispense with canonical impediments arising from Levitical laws that are no longer binding in the New Testament. Not the whopper that Seventh Day Adventists appear to think it is.
 
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dmar198 said:
So that seems to be the context in which this claim about the pope “modifying divine law” appears: it is a reference to the pope’s power to dispense with canonical impediments arising from Levitical laws that are no longer binding in the New Testament. Not the whopper that Seventh Day Adventists appear to think it is.
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Good finding. Anyway, it is disingenuous for them to quote a Catholic theologian/writer without establishing whether it is the Church’s teaching or not. They should have used official Church teaching through official Church’s documents like the Catechism or Canon Law and then we can look for their meaning and intention.
 
steve_sansoucie said:
Modify can also mean “describe” (as in adverbs and adjectives being known as modifiers). Maybe that’s what Ferraris was referring to.
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Or he could have been flat wrong. Catholics are, you know. I tried to look up this quote and found it no where except on anti-Catholic sites. It is surely not some quote the popes have been quoting in encyclicals. Think of it this way. What if I were to claim that all Protestants were ignorant bigots by quoting from the Pastor Fred Phelps?
 
Well if he did then it means we would be somehow mistaken in our own views wouldnt we?
 
BlackFriar said:
Well if he did then it means we would be somehow mistaken in our own views wouldnt we?
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Are you trying to say that if the Pope changed divine law we would be mistaken in what we thought that law meant?
 
You are welcome to posit a more logical possibility…I cannot think of anything more convincing than that it wasnt really divine law to begin with.

To suggest the Pope would have a stroke or a statue might fall on him if he tried is a bit superstitious.
 
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BlackFriar said:
You are welcome to posit a more logical possibility…I cannot think of anything more convincing than that it wasnt really divine law to begin with.

To suggest the Pope would have a stroke or a statue might fall on him if he tried is a bit superstitious.
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that would be a bit superstitious. i agree. though there are laws that are clearly divine laws. I also have confidence the Supreme Pontiff will not change fundamental divine laws. A most notable divine law would be what marriage is and who it can only be between. Would you agree?
 
I am not that smart or confident on these very difficult matters.
So I am happy for the Pope to tell me or clarify what is or is not of divine or natural law.

That is why I am relaxed about AL. But certain Cardinals and many CAF members seem to know better than His chosen instrument.
 
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dmar198 said:
So that seems to be the context in which this claim about the pope “modifying divine law” appears: it is a reference to the pope’s power to dispense with canonical impediments arising from Levitical laws that are no longer binding in the New Testament. Not the whopper that Seventh Day Adventists appear to think it is.
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Well, canonical law is not 'divine" either - it is not part of the Deposit of faith, and therefore can be changed or dispensed by the Bishop for various reasons. Thanks for doing all that great research dmar!
 
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