The Pope, Our God and Allah

[Mannyfit75]

(a little more specific this time)

Is it the official (infallible?) view of the RCC that muslims and Christians, despite their mutually exclusive views, pray to the same god?

Nita quoted the answer. Basically God will judge them accordingly and they will received their reward, whether they will inherit the Kingdom of God, or eternal damnation, is judged by God alone.

Or those who pray to false gods are being deceived and worshipping other spiritual entities.

Idol worship for other gods or pagan gods is forbidden.

Catechism of the Catholic Church states,

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

-Tim

 

[Ghosty]

Do you know that some Easter Rite Catholics, which are based around Arabic language (I don’t remember which ones), also say Allah? Allah means God in Arabic.

I pray to Allah every Sunday at the Melkite Divine Liturgy

Muslims have the right address, and they’ve heard stories, but they don’t know the guy personally. That’s what it basically boils down to.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Gara3987]

Do you realize that you’re asserting the God revealed in the Old Testament, the one worshipped by the Jews, is not really God?; that He is not the same God that is further revealed in the New Testament?

Nita

Sorry about that (thanks for correcting me) I didn’t catch that one, what I should have said about the Jews it that they rejected God. By Rejecting Our Lord Jesus they reject God.

 

[Nita]

Sorry about that (thanks for correcting me) I didn’t catch that one, what I should have said about the Jews it that they rejected God. By Rejecting Our Lord Jesus they reject God.

Not in the sense that they are rejecting the truth that there is One God, the creator of the universe, whom they worship. They are rejecting the revelation that there is a trinity of Persons in that one God - that the “Father”, whom Jesus spoke about, is God and that Jesus, altho another Person, is also that One God. They are not rejecting God the Creator (Father); they are rejecting God the Son.

Nita

 

[Gara3987]

About Trosch.org speaking about Pope John Paul II that way is very interesting. There are 101 known heretical act that were committed by JPII that are documented. One thing that was done by JPII was adding to the Rosary, Luminous Mysteries As all Catholics should be aware, there is a reason that the Rosary contains 150 Aves. The Rosary is a derivative, for private devotion, of the official public prayer of the Church, known as the Divine Office, which includes the Holy Mass and the eight Hours. Since over the course of a week the Divine Office normally comprises all 150 Psalms of the Psalter, the Rosary contains 150 Aves, divided into 15 decades, with a Mystery assigned to each for meditation. 150 – no more, no less. It seems JPII was arithmetic-impaired, or Tradition-impaired.

As for more of Father Trosch’s claims; a lot of the ones I went through are actually fairly accurate, though I really don’t go through his site very often. The One thing I was trying to figure out though about him is were he actually stands. It would seem that he is not Novus Ordo, that is an obvious. He is not CMRI, SSPX, or SSPV (he acknowledges the current pope as pope) because he has an article written up that explain that a Pope if elected a Pope is always legally a Pope, that is why CMRI, SSPX, and SSPV are incorrect. As for his wittings on Pope Benedict XVI I am unsure about that, I have not been keeping up to date with Benedict XVI, as far as it is to my knowledge and understanding, Pope Benedict XVI is trying to correct the corruption in the Church. Though I know that when he was Cardinal Josef Alois Ratzinger he did some pretty questionable things, but my personal thought on that is I think he did it to insure his pontificate. From my understanding that was a subject conversation between Pope Benedict XVI and Father Hung Kung.

As For Father Trosch you can write to him and get some direct feed back from him, ask him about certain things that you see as heretical and see how he answers. As I have said I really don’t go through his site very often, I usually go through other sites like Traditional Catholic Apologetics @ catholicapologetics.net/, and another good one is the Traditional Roman Catholic Network @ traditio.com/. You do bring up some good points about his site, and I haven’t come across the tobacco growers, cigarette manufacturers and distributors deserve death penalty thing, and I am sure that I have missed a lot of other things as well, but I think that that would be something good to bring to his attention and see what his defense would be, maybe it will allow you to understand him better. I do admit that I find some of the stuff that I have went through very interesting.

I would like to thank you for your opinion though GandalfTheWhite, I really appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Gara3987, to be honest with you, D. Trosch might have interesting opinion but then, J. Chick has very interesting opinions as well. Really, his site is full of conspiracy theories about New World Order, Freemasonary, Satanism etc. He goes even as far as to claim that JPII was a Satanist! Look: trosch.org/msn/help-satanic-symb.html. His logic is just silly (like many other things he mentions). Basically he says that St. Peter’s Cross (the inverted cross) has nothing to do with Peter and because the symbol is also used by satanists it only proves that JPII was a satanist. Seriously, I’m having hard time believing that the author is a sane person. Seriously, please don’t take this site seriously since this is just an example of the crazy things this site claims.

God bless!

 

[Gara3987]

I see what it is that you’re saying to be very honest I don’t take very many things to literally. As for Trosch I see what he writes as interesting, I will take into consideration and do further research myself; but I do know there are some people who do become fanatical. One thing you should keep in mind, there are Conspiracies Theories and actual Conspiracies. If there is known proof it is no longer a theory it becomes reality.

As for the inverted cross, I have come across many people who seem to think that it has something to do with Saint Peter. In reality it was originally connected to Saint Peter but was taken in by Satanists who use it in mockery and rejection of our Lord. The inverted cross is now known as a satanic symbol that is used in their rituals and what not. In fact most Inverted symbols are typical of the opposite values pursued by satanists. People who are sometimes sacrificed to satan on black sabbath are crucified upside down in accordance with this tradition. I don’t understand why so many confuse that, but then again I don’t think too many folks are aware of what goes on in such cults.

With Father Trosch stating that JPII being an Anti-christ is actually accurate, JPII has taught many heretical things such as: 1) The Catholic Church Lacks Unity. UUS:7-10 (John Paul II), Christian unity is the Catholic Church. ** Pius XI**, MA:3,15. (Taught prior and by the Saints), 2) Infants can be saved without baptism. EV:99, 3/25/1995 (JPII), Infants need Baptism for salvation. **St. Zosimus I, D.102. (Taught prior and by the Saints), 3) Muslims worship the One True God. CH:141, 1994 (JPII), Only Catholics can worship God. Gregory XVI, SJS (Taught prior and by the Saints), 4) Heretical sects have an apostolic mission. LOR, 06/10/1980 (JPII), The Catholic Church is the only apostolic mission. ** Leo XIII, SCG:35 (Taught prior and by the Saints), 5)The Holy Spirit uses sects as means of salvation. CT:32, 10/16/1979 (JPII), The Holy Spirit does not give life to heretics. Leo XIII, SCG:18 (Taught prior and by the Saints), 6) We must pray with heretics for unity. UUS:21, 05/25/1995 (JPII), If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic. St. Agatho I, SCN:XXI:635 (Taught prior and by the Saints). The list goes on, and due to JPII contradicting the teachings of the Church and the Saints that would make him an Anti-christ. What many may think of when they first hear the title Anti-christ they think of the devil himself, but in reality there are many Anti-christs out there, I believe that this is what Father Trosch is referring to.

“It is the last hour”… That is, it is the last age of the world. Many Antichrists, that is, many heretics, enemies of Christ and his church, and forerunners of the great Antichrist. -I John 2:18

As for him claiming that JPII was a satanists, I would have to say I don’t know about that though JPII has done some questionable thing. There have been popes in the past that have been Heretics and Excommunicated.

POPE VIGILIUS (537-555) would be the good example, Vigilius became to all appearances a supporter of heresy when, in 553, he refused to uphold firmly the Church’s teaching that Christ had two Wills, against “Monothelism.” He did not condemn either this or the older Monophysite heresy. The Fifth Oecumenical Council at Constantinople (553) excommunicated Pope Vigilius, and the next year he recanted again, saying that he had been deceived by the devil.

So just because Karol Józef Wojtyła was elected as Pope does not mean that he was morally a good Pope (he was legally Pope), as a matter of fact it goes back to Pope John XXIII and even further. The reason why I only go back the John XXIII is due to the fact that the corruption actually took off completely at his death where he stated “Stop the Council; stop the Council.” (Vatican II).

Well before I make this into a whole book, the point I am trying to make is that too me nothing is impossible and I will take anything into consideration. I will not just go with what some claim without doing my own research, but if some one is to claim something and have legit evidence to back them up I will consider looking further into it. That is just the way that I do things though.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I see what it is that you’re saying to be very honest I don’t take very many things to literally. As for Trosch I see what he writes as interesting, I will take into consideration and do further research myself; but I do know there are some people who do become fanatical. One thing you should keep in mind, there are Conspiracies Theories and actual Conspiracies. If there is known proof it is no longer a theory it becomes reality.

Yes, there are indeed conspiracies and conspiracy theories. New World Order, Catholicism creating Islam in it’s pursuit to take over the world, or JPII being a mason and a satanist are conspiracy theories - products of people’s imaginations. It’s very easy to come up with something like this but what is harder is to actually support it (especially if there is no support). Well, I’m still waiting for some HARD FACTs that will bring the Church to its knees. It’s not only me however. People have been waiting for generations as such claims (and similar ones) are not something new.

As for the inverted cross, I have come across many people who seem to think that it has something to do with Saint Peter.

Well, it has to do a lot with St. Peter. The tradition (I think first mentioned in the 3rd century) is that he was crucified upside down. Therefore like cross has become the symbol of Christ (and Christianity in general), inverted cross is sometimes used as a sign of Peter.

In reality it was originally connected to Saint Peter but was taken in by Satanists who use it in mockery and rejection of our Lord. The inverted cross is now known as a satanic symbol that is used in their rituals and what not. In fact most Inverted symbols are typical of the opposite values pursued by satanists. People who are sometimes sacrificed to satan on black sabbath are crucified upside down in accordance with this tradition. I don’t understand why so many confuse that, but then again I don’t think too many folks are aware of what goes on in such cults.

Yep, I know inverted cross is ALSO a sign of Satanism and often mockery of Christianity but do these people have some sort of trademark on symbols? Seriously, this argument is as silly as showing someone a picture of an Indian wearing the swastika symbol and claiming that he is a Nazi. The same logic was applied in the conspiracy theories against G.W.Bush that claim that he is a satanist and point to several pictures of him making the “horned hand” sign. Guess what? Every rude Italian, supporter of The University of Texas and its sports teams or metal fan is now Satanist.

Same logic.

With Father Trosch stating that JPII being an Anti-christ is actually accurate, JPII has taught many heretical things such as: 1) The Catholic Church Lacks Unity. UUS:7-10 (John Paul II), Christian unity is the Catholic Church. ** Pius XI**, MA:3,15. (Taught prior and by the Saints), 2) Infants can be saved without baptism. EV:99, 3/25/1995 (JPII), Infants need Baptism for salvation. **St. Zosimus **I, D.102. (Taught prior and by the Saints), 3) Muslims worship the One True God. CH:141, 1994 (JPII), Only Catholics can worship God. …he Holy Spirit does not give life to heretics. Leo XIII, SCG:18 (Taught prior and by the Saints), 6) We must pray with heretics for unity. UUS:21, 05/25/1995 (JPII), If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic. St. Agatho I, SCN:XXI:635 (Taught prior and by the Saints). …

Before we get into this deeper, let me ask you something? Did you read all the sentences he quotes in the actual context? Because you know what? One can open the Bible and easily “prove” Protestantism by simply quoting verses without revealing the context. Also is everything a Pope says considered as doctrine or dogma? Does it alsways become the official teaching of Catholicism? So when a Pope A and Pope B have different opinion on an issue (specially since they live during different time periods) is at least one of them heretical?

As for him claiming that JPII was a satanists, I would have to say I don’t know about that though JPII has done some questionable thing. There have been popes in the past that have been Heretics and Excommunicated.

If JPII was a satanist then let me turn and laugh at the devil’s face, saying: Dude, you’re doing an incredibly bad job!

So just because Karol Józef Wojtyła was elected as Pope does not mean that he was morally a good Pope (he was legally Pope), as a matter of fact it goes back to Pope John XXIII and even further. The reason why I only go back the John XXIII is due to the fact that the corruption actually took off completely at his death where he stated “Stop the Council; stop the Council.” (Vatican II).

Sorry?

You know what? How about you create a new thread about JPII and whether he a heretic or not. You can discuss all those things there.

 

[Gara3987]

GandalfTheWhite: I understand everything that you are saying I was basically making a point. As for JPII (I wasn’t declaring that he was a satanist I wouldn’t know that, I was pointing out that he has done some questionable things) I don’t think that it is worth getting into him, as far as I am concerned he is dead and gone and we need to look ahead forward and onward. It is true what you speak with the inverted Cross, St. Peter was crucified up side down, it is also like the swastika symbol that was originally a Japanese symbol which meant the sun and life or something to that nature. Then Hitler took it and used it and now you have many people who believe the sign to represent evil. As for the Catholic Church it will never fall, that was stated by our Lord Himself. Though I will admit I have really enjoyed reading your opinion, I didn’t mean to upset or offend you if I did but I was interested in your views. You are very intelligent, and I find it very interesting how this conversation took off, and it was fun talking to you. Take it easy.

 

[bob]

Sorry about that (thanks for correcting me) I didn’t catch that one, what I should have said about the Jews it that they rejected God. By Rejecting Our Lord Jesus they reject God.

If you study Salvation History, you will see that throughout their history, the Jews have alternated between loving and rejecting God. Yet they still believed in Him. Rejecting God does not mean they know a different god.

Despite they rejections, He always loved them and provided for them.

They believe in Yahweh - the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob.
The Muslims believe in Allah - the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob.
Christians believe in God - the God of Abraham, Issac & Jacob.

We all see Him from a different perspective.
It is just that our revelation is more complete.