G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Again, comparing Catholicism to Saudis and Islamic theocracy is the ultimate apples and oranges argument of all time?
- Status
P
prodigal-sun
Guest
Yes! But you do not believe in the “Catholic Church” and that is where ONE of your problems lie. If you want a Cathoilc Communion come and be in “Comunion” with the Catholic Church… It is very simple. Even Catholics should not partake of the Eucharist under some circumstances, why do you believe you have a right to what even Catholics do not have a right too.
Peace!
J
Janet1983
Guest
Are you telling me that Protestant Churches are of the devil? To me that just sounded a lot like it.
Being called “not Churches in the proper sense” is already problematic, as is declaring that “it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of “Church” could possibly be attributed to them, given that they do not accept the theological notion of the Church in the Catholic sense and that they lack elements considered essential to the Catholic Church.” (CDF Commentary on the document “Responses to some questions regarding certain aspects of the doctrine on the church”.
However bringing Protestant Churches in any connection with attempts of Hell is certainly not going to bring any Protestant Church under the authority of the Pope and I am glad that I have never seen such wording issued from official sources.
I as a former Catholic don’t have a problem with that either. I for my part don’t wish to receive it. The trouble that arises out of this is nearly exclusively found within mixed marriages. That is something the ecumenical movement in Germany is speaking for.
Leaving the general debate about inter-communion aside this is and will be the one factor that will keep coming up and keep causing problems.
M
mark_a
Guest
An admirable point of view.
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
If Protestant churches deny the validity of the Papacy, what spirit does that come from? God or the Devil?
If Protestant churches deny the validity of Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist, what spirit does that come from? God or the Devil?
If Protestant churches deny the role of Mary in Church life, despite Fatima, Lourdes, Akita et. al and the fact that God won’t even allow the devil to blaspheme Mary in exorcisms (See the following link), yet think nothing of accusing such apparitions as being of the devil, despite the increased devotion to Christ himself they engender, what spirit does that come from? God or the Devil?
If Protestant churches ride roughshod over Christ’s clear, blunt statement to Peter, that He would found His church on him, then what spirit gave them the authority to set up secular heads of churches such as British royalty for the Anglicans for example? God or the Devil?
signandsight.com/features/530.html
If Protestants continuously mock the Catholic Church, and if for hundreds of years the Wesminster Confession of Faith called the Pope, “That man of perdition, the anti-Christ” (as the right honorable Rev. Ian Paisley still does)., what spirit does that come from? God or the Devil?
I still remember my old Protestant pastor, dying of cancer, and his sincere concern when he realised his oath on the Westminster Confession of Faith contained a heresy.
The last point about mixed marriages doesn’t make any difference. If the other partner wants to take communion, then they can join the Catholic Church. If they think it’s important enough to take communion, then they can go the extra mile as far as I’m concerned, and join the church. It’s not that hard.
In actual practice, you would probably find quite a number of priests would bend the rules, provided the parishioner didn’t publicise the fact.
They can’t have it both ways. Either they are in some sense affected by a very deep seated deception, or we Catholics may as well pack up and go home.
E
Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Get back on topic and cease with inflamatory posts.
P
piltdown_man
Guest
P
piltdown_man
Guest
Forgive me, but in this case the word “catholic”, which is the english form of the Greek word καθολικός (katholikos), means universal, not “Roman Catholic.” When one proclaims this statement, called The Apostles’ Creed, they are stating that they believe in the universal Church of Jesus Christ, not the Roman Catholic Church per se. It’s the same for The Nicene Creed.
H
hartleymartin
Guest
Then I beg the question, why we have the “Anglican Church”, the “Episcopalian Church”, the “Baptist Church”… etc. They’ve got their own names because they don’t want to be part of the “Catholic Church” or “Universal Church”.
Before the reformation there was only “The Universal Church” it was post-reformation that people starting naming their own churches, creating the denominations and in many ways implying that they did not want to be part of the “universal church” established by Jesus Christ.
The Anglican Church has some claim to apostolic succession, as well as the Orthodox churches, but most other denominations do not.
The original claim that the Pope says one thing and does another is erroneous and false. The Pope is calling for all Christians, whether in communion with the Catholic Church or not, to stand against secularism. He wasn’t proclaiming that all Christians are considered to be in communion with the Catholic Church.
Before the reformation there was only “The Universal Church” it was post-reformation that people starting naming their own churches, creating the denominations and in many ways implying that they did not want to be part of the “universal church” established by Jesus Christ.
The Anglican Church has some claim to apostolic succession, as well as the Orthodox churches, but most other denominations do not.
The original claim that the Pope says one thing and does another is erroneous and false. The Pope is calling for all Christians, whether in communion with the Catholic Church or not, to stand against secularism. He wasn’t proclaiming that all Christians are considered to be in communion with the Catholic Church.
P
piltdown_man
Guest
The Orthodox Church has some claim to apostolic succession?
Thank you very much, that is very gracious of you.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
LOL…one does wonder how you can have a little or a lot of apostolic succession. The “little bit pregant” cliche comes to mind. Either you have it or you don’t 
The Orthodox Church has some claim to apostolic succession?
Thank you very much, that is very gracious of you.
G
GKC
Guest
Yep.
I try to do the same.
GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus
I try to do the same.
GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Why do you disagree?
G
GKC
Guest
Doesn’t offend me. I don’t see the Anglican world as in any sort of communion at all with the RCC, not that the idea doesn’t have its good points. Once upon a time (in the days of Paul VI and Michael Ramsey, the Archbishop of Canterbury) there were interesting prospects about closing the gap between Anglicanism and Rome. Back in the days of the beginning of the Anglican/Roman Catholic International Commission. Way back befioe the slow motion Anglican train wreck.
In general, you won’t see +Rowan doing much of anything, unless you use time lapse photography. But you’re right, he won’t try reading A WOMAN RIDES THE BEAST from a soapbox in Hyde Park.
GKC
In general, you won’t see +Rowan doing much of anything, unless you use time lapse photography. But you’re right, he won’t try reading A WOMAN RIDES THE BEAST from a soapbox in Hyde Park.
GKC
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
You don’t offend me at all, Jharek. There is much about the Anglican Church’s history, which I consider dark, that gives me great pause and I’ve never been so close to being decidely Catholic again than lately. There are a great many contradictions and I’ve come to the conclusion, which GKC disagrees with of course, that there is no such thing as an Anglo-Catholic. I view the 39 Articles as the only real historical official statement of what Anglicanism really is. I think the Anglican Church was definitely protestant until the 1800’s when it decided to go retro and repackage itself as catholic (small c); guys like Newman, Pusey, and company tried hard to sell the branch theory and the catholicity of the Church of England. If you just look back in the first 400 years, it doesn’t wash. Too little, too late, IMO. I think the chickens have come home to roost, sadly.
We’re seeing insane contradictions and perhaps God’s judgment on the Anglican Communion for all I know? ACNA is a group of Anglicans that are, in many ways, an unholy alliance. You have a bishop like +Iker and a bishop like +Duncan. Iker claims women’s ordination is a heresy, Duncan sees it as a great blessing and vocation for women. Yet both are willing to compromise their morals so they can form a union against the Episcopal Church. sigh…
Divorce and remarriage is a no big whoop kind of thing yet the anti-gay sentiment is strong. I find that odd. Guys like David Virtue get online day in day out just trashing TEC over and over and never standing for anything or furthering a POSITIVE agenda for the conservative side. You have one side of Anglicanism throwing communion wafers to the doves after Mass as they think the presence departs if there ever even was one in the Host. The other side reveres the Eucharist and reserves it and holds benediction and adoration for the Eucharist. Contradictions trying to live in harmony? Drives me crazy.
That Book of Common Prayer is addictingly beautiful, the people are generally AWESOME, the service dignified, the fellowship excellent, the singing excellent, and the sincerity is high. I have a love-hate relationship with Anglicanism and Catholicism and wish there were another alternative to them both sometimes! LOL…I’m more Catholic than anything. I’m having a lot of trouble swallowing some things and am working through it. Thank God for MLB playoffs right now to take my mind off this stuff!
And thanks for your kind words and compliment to GKC and myself. It means a lot!
We’re seeing insane contradictions and perhaps God’s judgment on the Anglican Communion for all I know? ACNA is a group of Anglicans that are, in many ways, an unholy alliance. You have a bishop like +Iker and a bishop like +Duncan. Iker claims women’s ordination is a heresy, Duncan sees it as a great blessing and vocation for women. Yet both are willing to compromise their morals so they can form a union against the Episcopal Church. sigh…
Divorce and remarriage is a no big whoop kind of thing yet the anti-gay sentiment is strong. I find that odd. Guys like David Virtue get online day in day out just trashing TEC over and over and never standing for anything or furthering a POSITIVE agenda for the conservative side. You have one side of Anglicanism throwing communion wafers to the doves after Mass as they think the presence departs if there ever even was one in the Host. The other side reveres the Eucharist and reserves it and holds benediction and adoration for the Eucharist. Contradictions trying to live in harmony? Drives me crazy.
That Book of Common Prayer is addictingly beautiful, the people are generally AWESOME, the service dignified, the fellowship excellent, the singing excellent, and the sincerity is high. I have a love-hate relationship with Anglicanism and Catholicism and wish there were another alternative to them both sometimes! LOL…I’m more Catholic than anything. I’m having a lot of trouble swallowing some things and am working through it. Thank God for MLB playoffs right now to take my mind off this stuff!
And thanks for your kind words and compliment to GKC and myself. It means a lot!
G
GKC
Guest
I’d reply to the first para, but as gurney says, there is no such thing as an Anglo-Catholic, so I will softly and suddenly fade awa…You don’t offend me at all, Jharek. There is much about the Anglican Church’s history, which I consider dark, that gives me great pause and I’ve never been so close to being decidely Catholic again than lately. There are a great many contradictions and I’ve come to the conclusion, which GKC disagrees with of course, that there is no such thing as an Anglo-Catholic. I view the 39 Articles as the only real historical official statement of what Anglicanism really is. I think the Anglican Church was definitely protestant until the 1800’s when it decided to go retro and repackage itself as catholic (small c); guys like Newman, Pusey, and company tried hard to sell the branch theory and the catholicity of the Church of England. If you just look back in the first 400 years, it doesn’t wash. Too little, too late, IMO. I think the chickens have come home to roost, sadly.
We’re seeing insane contradictions and perhaps God’s judgment on the Anglican Communion for all I know? ACNA is a group of Anglicans that are, in many ways, an unholy alliance. You have a bishop like +Iker and a bishop like +Duncan. Iker claims women’s ordination is a heresy, Duncan sees it as a great blessing and vocation for women. Yet both are willing to compromise their morals so they can form a union against the Episcopal Church. sigh…
Divorce and remarriage is a no big whoop kind of thing yet the anti-gay sentiment is strong. I find that odd. Guys like David Virtue get online day in day out just trashing TEC over and over and never standing for anything or furthering a POSITIVE agenda for the conservative side. You have one side of Anglicanism throwing communion wafers to the doves after Mass as they think the presence departs if there ever even was one in the Host. The other side reveres the Eucharist and reserves it and holds benediction and adoration for the Eucharist. Contradictions trying to live in harmony? Drives me crazy.
That Book of Common Prayer is addictingly beautiful, the people are generally AWESOME, the service dignified, the fellowship excellent, the singing excellent, and the sincerity is high. I have a love-hate relationship with Anglicanism and Catholicism and wish there were another alternative to them both sometimes! LOL…I’m more Catholic than anything. I’m having a lot of trouble swallowing some things and am working through it. Thank God for MLB playoffs right now to take my mind off this stuff!
And thanks for your kind words and compliment to GKC and myself. It means a lot!
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Maybe I’m just jumping the gun. I should be more precise. There obviously are Anglo-Catholics since the Oxford Movement and thanks to the Dutch Touch/PNCC, etc. They have a catholic liturgical character and devotion, catholic mode of thinking on many issues and spirituality. The problem I see is that Anglo-Catholicism is a late-in-the-game invention. It wasn’t there for hundreds of years. Most Anglo-Catholics I know say there was this non-papal catholicism in England for centuries, then the popes took over the British Isles and spoiled it all, then England in the 16th century brought it back to its original Catholicism. My reading of history shows they turned it into a Cranmerian Church and several hundred years later the Oxford crew tried to steer it back to a catholic mode of thinking and worship. The reality was the Cranmers, Ridleys, Latimers, Bucers of the world seemed to control the church of england and it became decidedly protestant, not catholic despite the via media language of Elizabeth’s time.
Also the fact that there is still so much that is “optional” in Anglo-Catholicism gives me pause. Confession? “all may, some should, none must” flies in the face of what Vernon Staley says in his book The Catholic Religion! Confession, IMO, is a key component of being catholic. rome and the Orthodox believe it’s essential. Why in anglo-catholicism is it “optional?”
Another thing that concerns me is how sporadic anglo-catholicism is. It’s not very consistent or coherent to me. And its dying largely as evangelicalism grows stronger in Anglicanism worldwide. And I think the fact that anglo-catholics are so diverse in their morality and theology shows that sometimes obsession with liturgy and ritual can trump morality and sound theology. The Episcopal Church has plenty of “anglo-catholics” in the ranks that are little more than hippy commune hipsters who like catholic style liturgy. The reality is that lex orandi, lex credendi doesn’t seem to be a real expression of Christianity in every case. The way one worships and prays doesn’t necessarily show a confession of beliefs and morals.
I find anglo-catholicism to be too little too late and an anachronism of sorts. I could TOTALLY be wrong. And some of the anglo-catholic guys I read are just wacky. Father Hart is one example. Wowzers! ?
Also the fact that there is still so much that is “optional” in Anglo-Catholicism gives me pause. Confession? “all may, some should, none must” flies in the face of what Vernon Staley says in his book The Catholic Religion! Confession, IMO, is a key component of being catholic. rome and the Orthodox believe it’s essential. Why in anglo-catholicism is it “optional?”
Another thing that concerns me is how sporadic anglo-catholicism is. It’s not very consistent or coherent to me. And its dying largely as evangelicalism grows stronger in Anglicanism worldwide. And I think the fact that anglo-catholics are so diverse in their morality and theology shows that sometimes obsession with liturgy and ritual can trump morality and sound theology. The Episcopal Church has plenty of “anglo-catholics” in the ranks that are little more than hippy commune hipsters who like catholic style liturgy. The reality is that lex orandi, lex credendi doesn’t seem to be a real expression of Christianity in every case. The way one worships and prays doesn’t necessarily show a confession of beliefs and morals.
I find anglo-catholicism to be too little too late and an anachronism of sorts. I could TOTALLY be wrong. And some of the anglo-catholic guys I read are just wacky. Father Hart is one example. Wowzers! ?
M
Mikeoffaith
Guest
And what’s wrong with Archbishop Oprah? Every Sunday every one in the congregation would be getting a new car, or a new washing machine, or a day at the spa.
B
BernadetteM
Guest
Please don’t even mention Hart. I surely don’t believe he is Anglo Catholic and the scorn and nastiness that comes out of his mouth doesn’t even seem Christian.
The Real Anglo Catholics will be heading to Rome soon and others to follow, once they finally realize that there is no other place to be to claim to be Catholic. Many follow the faith and always have, but have been taught there is no need for the papacy. Will maybe not, but what you get is TEC or the CoE.
By the way going from Hart’s speech I would say he is pretty anti Catholic.
Bernadette
G
GKC
Guest
Some of the real Anglo-Catholics will likely go. Some likely will not.
GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus
- Status