The Popes - History

[ClemtheCatholic]

Hi all,

To start with - I am a Catholic. I support the Church 100%, go to confession regularly, and go to Mass 4 days a week…

I just wanted to ask about the Popes. I thought I’d make this thread here as people of other religions may be interested in hearing the answers which I hope shall be provided…

Basically, I want more information that will help me when discussing the matter with non-Catholics… as you probably know, people often condemn the church for its history. I am well capable of defending the Church when it comes to the crusades (as all to often it does in debates), and with stuff like the Inquisition I reckon I can hold my own… but when non-Catholics talk about the popes I am sorry to say I know very little on the subject…

I know that through the ages there have been popes who have been married, had families, been fundamentally selfish, lived in luxury, and so on… (I apologize for my like or specification on the matter, as I said, I’m not an expert!). I know that “humans are sinners” no matter what position of power they hold or who they work for (barring our Blessed Mother of course) but I am really looking for me than this when discussing the issue…

So please, if anybody can provide firstly accurate information on the historical part - which popes are known as being “infamous”, what the problems with them were and so on… the more information you can give the better! Secondly, I’m looking for some good “Catholic” arguing points (though having more information will by itself play a major part in this).

Thanks Sincerely, really appreciate any help in defence of the faith!

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

 

[cmforte]

Hi all,

To start with - I am a Catholic. I support the Church 100%, go to confession regularly, and go to Mass 4 days a week…

I just wanted to ask about the Popes. I thought I’d make this thread here as people of other religions may be interested in hearing the answers which I hope shall be provided…

Basically, I want more information that will help me when discussing the matter with non-Catholics… as you probably know, people often condemn the church for its history. I am well capable of defending the Church when it comes to the crusades (as all to often it does in debates), and with stuff like the Inquisition I reckon I can hold my own… but when non-Catholics talk about the popes I am sorry to say I know very little on the subject…

I know that through the ages there have been popes who have been married, had families, been fundamentally selfish, lived in luxury, and so on… (I apologize for my like or specification on the matter, as I said, I’m not an expert!). I know that “humans are sinners” no matter what position of power they hold or who they work for (barring our Blessed Mother of course) but I am really looking for me than this when discussing the issue…

So please, if anybody can provide firstly accurate information on the historical part - which popes are known as being “infamous”, what the problems with them were and so on… the more information you can give the better! Secondly, I’m looking for some good “Catholic” arguing points (though having more information will by itself play a major part in this).

Thanks Sincerely, really appreciate any help in defence of the faith!

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic

Try the Catholic Encyclopedia here: New Advent I don’t know how “unbiased” it is, but it seems to tell even the seedy side of our Church’s history.

-Chris

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Books have been written about this, so it may be challenging to cover this in a thread.

In discussing the Papacy with non-Catholics, I tend to emphasize the modern Popes, as they have for the most part humbly and honestly expressed both the weight and true character of the office.

The history of the Papacy is intertwined with political history, and it is only recently IMHO that the Papacy / Vatican have been focused more squarely and completely on faith alone.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Thanks hugely to those of you who have replied!

 

[Joe_5859]

It sounds like you need to buy Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid.

It’s like he foresaw the future, reached into your brain, and wrote an entire book in response to your question.

 

[RPRPsych]

“Saints & Sinners: A History of the Popes” by Eamon Duffy is a great place to start.

 

[bmonk]

Another point to mention may be that the presence of notoriously sinful Popes is not a sign that the Church has gone astray–rather, it’s a sign that, despite such persons, the Spirit still guides the Church and protects it from error.

 

[jschutzm]

YES, there have been bad Popes… and we shouldn’t shy away from that… but embrace it.

Because it actually proves 2 VERY Core beliefs.

1. That Catholics are not ‘catholic’ because of the holiness of the Papacy… that is we don’t WORSHIP the Pope…because we know, just as well as anyone else, that they are not perfect. So acknowledging that not all Popes have been (for lack of a better term) Saints… actually stengthens our argument FOR the faith and reduces 1 argument against it. So we are Catholic because of the TRUTHS taught by the faith NOT because the leaders are holy and perfect.
2. Bad Popes shows tangible evidence for a CORE Catholic belief. That our Church was founded by Christ and that it is guided by the Holy Spirit… NOT mere men.
   Evidence #1 is that none of these very worldly and greedy men EVER changed the doctrines of the faith. Not one. You’d think that for all their zeal for power, greed, and sexual appetites, that they would have changed SOMETHING within the faith itself. Maybe made mistresses acceptable, perhaps made a lack of tithing a jailable offense. Perhaps made indulgences mandatory or done something to appease the Protestant movement. But NO… none of them changed a thing. And this is a POWERFUL argument to the idea that the Holy Spirit is in control and NOT mere men and WHY Catholics have faith in the church, and NOT the Pope, himself.

 

[steve_b]

Basically, I want more information that will help me when discussing the matter with non-Catholics… as you probably know, people often condemn the church for its history. I am well capable of defending the Church when it comes to the crusades (as all to often it does in debates), and with stuff like the Inquisition I reckon I can hold my own… but when non-Catholics talk about the popes I am sorry to say I know very little on the subject…

(See Apostolic See; Apostolic Succession; Church; Papal Arbitration; Pope; Unity.)
C:

I know that through the ages there have been popes who have been married, had families, been fundamentally selfish, lived in luxury, and so on… (I apologize for my like or specification on the matter, as I said, I’m not an expert!). I know that “humans are sinners” no matter what position of power they hold or who they work for (barring our Blessed Mother of course) but I am really looking for me than this when discussing the issue…

Out of 266 successors to St Peter, there are relatively few bad popes. And as everyone knows, as you point out, people are sinful. Even when Jesus picks Judas to be an apostle, and he had a stake in the ministry, when Judas died, he was replaced with another. Jesus never promised a sinless Church, He promised not even the gates of Hell would prevail against His Church, the only one He builds on Peter.
C:

So please, if anybody can provide firstly accurate information on the historical part - which popes are known as being “infamous”, what the problems with them were and so on… the more information you can give the better! Secondly, I’m looking for some good “Catholic” arguing points (though having more information will by itself play a major part in this).

scroll 1/2 way down the page to “pope”. what follows is the list of popes, in alphabetical order, not chronological order. Note: some popes that take the same name (i.e. Eugene) have been put under one heading such as Popes Eugene I-IV

oce.catholic.com/original-catholic-encyclopedia-index.php?p=P

BTW, in case the subject of anti popes comes up, they aren’t popes.