The Pope's New Youth Mass by Jeffrey Tucker

  • Thread starter Thread starter SJP
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not really; obedience has to come first, since it is not sinful to distribute Communion to those who are standing. For our Lord was obedient, even unto death, and obedience is more pleasing to God than sacrifice.
You are of course correct Father about the importance of obedience. However, there is a way around this while being obedient isn’t there?

You do NOT need the permission of your local ordinary to celebrate the Mass of tradition. Perhaps introduce it during the week for members of your parish who may be interested. Really, you don’t have to wait for requests if you do not want to. The Pope is encouraging priests to do this.

Since, under the old Mass, receiving via standing is strictly forbidden, the problem will be alleviated at least in your Masses in the Extraordinary Form. Correct?

Also, you do NOT need permission of your local ordinary to celebrate the Novus Ordo ad orientum. Perhaps you could do this as well. As your parishioners experience both forms of the Mass, and the OF celebrated ad orientum with the prayers of consecration in Latin, they might take the lead and start kneeling for you.

God bless!
 
You are of course correct Father about the importance of obedience. However, there is a way around this while being obedient isn’t there?

You do NOT need the permission of your local ordinary to celebrate the Mass of tradition. Perhaps introduce it during the week for members of your parish who may be interested. Really, you don’t have to wait for requests if you do not want to. The Pope is encouraging priests to do this.

Since, under the old Mass, receiving via standing is strictly forbidden, the problem will be alleviated at least in your Masses in the Extraordinary Form. Correct?

Also, you do NOT need permission of your local ordinary to celebrate the Novus Ordo ad orientum. Perhaps you could do this as well. As your parishioners experience both forms of the Mass, and the OF celebrated ad orientum with the prayers of consecration in Latin, they might take the lead and start kneeling for you.

God bless!
Thank you, cathguy; these are indeed good suggestions. I already offer the TLM, at my parish and elsewhere. However, while I believe that the problems of reverence and rubrics which we are discussing in the context of the Novus Ordo and “Youth Masses” could, in principle, be solved, I don’t think they can be solved at the grass roots level of the parish. We need to return to uniform reverence at every Mass, and this can only be done by legislation from the pope and enforcement by the bishops. If the pope can mandate that all who receive Holy Communion from him kneel and receive on the tongue, perhaps, soon, he will mandate that this return as the norm for receiving Holy Communion everywhere. (I fear it’s only wishful thinking…) We cannot have an admixture of Gregorian chant and the same (or new… like Spirit Whisper, Spirit Shout, the opening ditty from the Mass with Cardinal Hume) banal songs that have characterized the last 40 years. There must be a clear distinction of the sacred. Nor does it make sense to have a solemn Gospel procession met with dance and dress that will be seen as unbecoming to the vast majority of the 600,000 people attending the Mass, and the millions watching on TV. This is not genuine “inculturation.” It is an affront to the sacred. In the end, I don’t believe that such legislation and enforcement will come at any time in the near future. This is just my opinion. But it is also a very important reason why I have petitioned to join the F.S.S.P.
 
Thank you, cathguy; these are indeed good suggestions. I already offer the TLM, at my parish and elsewhere. However, while I believe that the problems of reverence and rubrics which we are discussing in the context of the Novus Ordo and “Youth Masses” could, in principle, be solved, I don’t think they can be solved at the grass roots level of the parish. We need to return to uniform reverence at every Mass, and this can only be done by legislation from the pope and enforcement by the bishops. If the pope can mandate that all who receive Holy Communion from him kneel and receive on the tongue, perhaps, soon, he will mandate that this return as the norm for receiving Holy Communion everywhere. (I fear it’s only wishful thinking…) We cannot have an admixture of Gregorian chant and the same (or new… like Spirit Whisper, Spirit Shout, the opening ditty from the Mass with Cardinal Hume) banal songs that have characterized the last 40 years. There must be a clear distinction of the sacred. Nor does it make sense to have a solemn Gospel procession met with dance and dress that will be seen as unbecoming to the vast majority of the 600,000 people attending the Mass, and the millions watching on TV. This is not genuine “inculturation.” It is an affront to the sacred. In the end, I don’t believe that such legislation and enforcement will come at any time in the near future. This is just my opinion. But it is also a very important reason why I have petitioned to join the F.S.S.P.
Wow. That is great Father. I do indeed hope that if it is God’s will you find a home in the F.S.S.P. I am praying for you! I am sorry I made such obvious suggestions. I did not know how deep into tradition you already were! 👍

I agree with everything you said, and/but I have a concern.

I agree with you that the Pope mandating reception by kneeling may be wishful thinking. But it is clear that he is leading by example.

I agree with your concern about mixing in traditional elements where there are abuses. Your points are VERY cogent and well taken.

However, the concern that I have with the way the return to tradition seems to be playing out is this: Because of the concerns you mention, our Church can balkanize. Many Catholics LOVE their home parishes and have found their home, and Catholic community life, there. I fear that those of us who have become strongly attached to the TLM are being made to ghettoize, and thereby we are STILL being denied an authentic Catholic parish life. Even with the Motu Proprio (perhaps more so) we are being asked to drive our families to the parish where the priest is supportive. This can be MILES away, and leads to disconnect between Catholics. The situation is painful and horrible.

I, for one, am praying that the Church recognize the need for every parish… every single one… to have one “Gregorian Mass” on the Sunday schedule. The EF ought to inform the way the OF is celebrated, and that can only happen in the EF is put back to its rightful place in the heart of the Church, and if priests who mostly say the OF say the EF at least once in awhile. This Mass is ALL of our birthright. If some laity want to attend the TLM once a month and the OF the rest of the time, that should be fine. If they want to have the TLM for baptisms and weddings, and the OF most other times, that should be fine as well. This needs to happen in EVERY parish.

We teach the children that they go to Mass for Jesus, for no other reason. But the Catholic parish is also where they make their friends, live the liturgical calendar, attend play-group, and a host of other things (all secondary but VERY important) as well. It PAINS the kids to not see “Bobby” or “Susie” because we are driving an hour or two to the TLM. They love the mass, and don’t complain, but WHY, WHY must we balkanize?

I of course do not know you, or know your situation. However, when discerning F.S.S.P. (they are WONDERFUL), please consider that we DESPERATELY need DIOCESAN priests LIKE YOU. You are probably in a place that is most frustrating. But, I can guarantee there are worshipers at your Church who have fallen in love with Catholic Tradition because of the Holy Ghost working through YOU. Who feel like they have a home inside the parish because of YOU. Who thereby threw the contraceptives in the garbage and had kids because of the Holy Ghost working through YOU.

Right now you are in the front lines of a war. I love the traditional groups, but, as a member of the laity who probably doesn’t know any better, I am asking “is the F.S.S.P. there too?” Or are they safely entrenched together where they are welcome, not touching the larger, dirtier, Church at large? They are a great resource, especially to priests who want to learn the old rites. But what about the desperate, confused, and wayward souls on the front lines?

Grunt work in a war stinks (I imagine). Ultimately though, I think it is wear all the glory is.

Should you discern F.S.S.P. I am sure God will work wonders through you. Should you discern diocesan priesthood, I know He will greater wonders still, because it is clear from your posts that He already has.

God bless.
 
Unfortunately, it is not the current norm in the U.S.; the 2002 IGRM leaves the posture for receiving Holy Communion up to the local conference of bishops, and the U.S.C.C.B. has decreed that it is standing. If I were to try to mandate kneeling in imitation of what the Holy Father is doing, I would be called into the bishop’s office and would be unable to claim that I was in accord with the Church’s law.
So… local law trumps universal law?
 
So… local law trumps universal law?
Local law always refines universal law, and is, in that sense, more restrictive. However, in this case, the universal law, from the 2002 IGRM is:

"390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
Code:
...
The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above); 
...
“Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful may, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.”

The US directives are:

“The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.”

If anyone could tell me the reason for the norm, I guess that would be useful, because I really don’t know. I know the Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum had to respond in 2002, saying:

"Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

“In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.”
 
Wow. That is great Father. I do indeed hope that if it is God’s will you find a home in the F.S.S.P. I am praying for you! I am sorry I made such obvious suggestions. I did not know how deep into tradition you already were! 👍

I agree with everything you said, and/but I have a concern.

I agree with you that the Pope mandating reception by kneeling may be wishful thinking. But it is clear that he is leading by example.

I agree with your concern about mixing in traditional elements where there are abuses. Your points are VERY cogent and well taken.

However, the concern that I have with the way the return to tradition seems to be playing out is this: Because of the concerns you mention, our Church can balkanize. Many Catholics LOVE their home parishes and have found their home, and Catholic community life, there. I fear that those of us who have become strongly attached to the TLM are being made to ghettoize, and thereby we are STILL being denied an authentic Catholic parish life. Even with the Motu Proprio (perhaps more so) we are being asked to drive our families to the parish where the priest is supportive. This can be MILES away, and leads to disconnect between Catholics. The situation is painful and horrible.

I, for one, am praying that the Church recognize the need for every parish… every single one… to have one “Gregorian Mass” on the Sunday schedule. The EF ought to inform the way the OF is celebrated, and that can only happen in the EF is put back to its rightful place in the heart of the Church, and if priests who mostly say the OF say the EF at least once in awhile. This Mass is ALL of our birthright. If some laity want to attend the TLM once a month and the OF the rest of the time, that should be fine. If they want to have the TLM for baptisms and weddings, and the OF most other times, that should be fine as well. This needs to happen in EVERY parish.

We teach the children that they go to Mass for Jesus, for no other reason. But the Catholic parish is also where they make their friends, live the liturgical calendar, attend play-group, and a host of other things (all secondary but VERY important) as well. It PAINS the kids to not see “Bobby” or “Susie” because we are driving an hour or two to the TLM. They love the mass, and don’t complain, but WHY, WHY must we balkanize?

I of course do not know you, or know your situation. However, when discerning F.S.S.P. (they are WONDERFUL), please consider that we DESPERATELY need DIOCESAN priests LIKE YOU. You are probably in a place that is most frustrating. But, I can guarantee there are worshipers at your Church who have fallen in love with Catholic Tradition because of the Holy Ghost working through YOU. Who feel like they have a home inside the parish because of YOU. Who thereby threw the contraceptives in the garbage and had kids because of the Holy Ghost working through YOU.

Right now you are in the front lines of a war. I love the traditional groups, but, as a member of the laity who probably doesn’t know any better, I am asking “is the F.S.S.P. there too?” Or are they safely entrenched together where they are welcome, not touching the larger, dirtier, Church at large? They are a great resource, especially to priests who want to learn the old rites. But what about the desperate, confused, and wayward souls on the front lines?

Grunt work in a war stinks (I imagine). Ultimately though, I think it is wear all the glory is.

Should you discern F.S.S.P. I am sure God will work wonders through you. Should you discern diocesan priesthood, I know He will greater wonders still, because it is clear from your posts that He already has.

God bless.
Thank you for your kind words. I have been thinking deeply about these issues for a long time. There are other reasons for my desire to join the F.S.S.P., such as my desire for a greater common life than is available in the diocesan priesthood. However, I truly believe that the more traditional Masses that are offered --be it through the F.S.S.P., Institute of Christ the King, or diocesan priests offering the Extraordinary form-- the better off the Church will be. The conclusion I have come to though, for me, is that I cannot effect the changes in the way the Ordinary Form is offered that I thought I would be able to as a diocesan priest (e.g., Gregorian chant, only male altar servers, and the like), and I don’t think I can live within the diocesan structure for much longer. Please keep me in your prayers.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd
 
Thank you for your kind words. I have been thinking deeply about these issues for a long time. There are other reasons for my desire to join the F.S.S.P., such as my desire for a greater common life than is available in the diocesan priesthood. However, I truly believe that the more traditional Masses that are offered --be it through the F.S.S.P., Institute of Christ the King, or diocesan priests offering the Extraordinary form-- the better off the Church will be. The conclusion I have come to though, for me, is that I cannot effect the changes in the way the Ordinary Form is offered that I thought I would be able to as a diocesan priest (e.g., Gregorian chant, only male altar servers, and the like), and I don’t think I can live within the diocesan structure for much longer. Please keep me in your prayers.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd
Father;

Do you have the custom of doing small Masses in your parish? For example, in some parishes, there is the custom of having a special Mass for those who have been received into the Church at Easter time, on the day of their last session of Mystagogia, and sometimes smaller groups such as the Catholic Women’s League, the Knights of Columbus, or the children who come for Catechism classes at the Church will occasionally have special Masses for their group - or the Life in the Spirit group, if you have that, or the Bible study, etc.

These small groups are often open to “new” ideas in worship (they are, after all, the means by which the innovations of the 1970s and '80s were introduced into the Church) - they might provide you with a starting place for introducing the idea of kneeling for Holy Communion, or other changes that you see as being desireable.

Eventually (once all of these small groups have been introduced to the idea) someone on the Parish Council will wonder aloud, “Why don’t we do it like that at regular Mass?” and they will all say, “Aye, why not?” and, you will have to tell your Bishop, “So sorry, the people are demanding it. What can I do … ?” 😉
 
Not really; obedience has to come first, since it is not sinful to distribute Communion to those who are standing. For our Lord was obedient, even unto death, and obedience is more pleasing to God than sacrifice.
But what if this act of obedience, combined with other acts of “obedience”, is killing their faith? What if the watering down of everything Catholic, combined with the forbidding of reverence, is destroying their Catholic Faith? What if the continuous aggiornamento has resulted in the *lex orandi *no longer corresponds to the Catholic lex credendi, and as such begins to weaken their faith (which would be the natural effect). Would such obedience, which ends by destroying, or at least diminishing thier faith, be true obedience? Or would it be sinful?

What if God allowed, as a punishment for sins, wolves in sheeps clothing insert themselves into the Church, rise to levels of authority, and begin to attack the faith from within? Would it be best to simply obey them and lose the faith (a well as our eternal soul)? Or should they be resisted?

Is the virtue of obedience is an absolute, or is it a balance point between two extremes? If it is a balance between two extremes, does that mean we should obey in all things, or only in all that is not sinful? Is it sinful to place oneself in an occaision of sin? How is it not an occaision of sin to attend, week after week, a Mass in which the liturgy has been stripped of its Catholic Spirit and remade according to the image and likeness of a Protestant (Episcopal) service… or worse?

Lex orandi, lex credendi. The way we pray is the way we will believe. If the liturgy is remade after the fashion of Cranmer’s service, and reverence is stamped out, what do we expect to happen to the faithful? Answer: They will become the unfaithful.

There must come a time when the wolves are resisted. It is the faith that is at stake, and the salvation of the souls of millions.

A priest told me that in our large archdiocese, out of all the Priests only 5 have the faith. All the rest are heretics. This, of course, is due in large part to the seminaries which have been corrupt for many decades. The same Priest recently read the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX and told me personally that he was taught, as true, every single one of the errors that were solemnly condemned.

I’m sorry Father. I have read some of your posts and I know you are a good Priest. I wish we had more like you. But the false obedience, which has muzzled those who should have spoken up and/or resisted, is precisely what has caused the mess that we are in.

I am going to end with a quote from Alta Vendita. I’m sure you are aware of it. It is the Masonic document that describes their goal and means to be employed in destroying the Church. The document fell into the hands of Pope Leo XIII (or was it Pius IX), who personally paid to have it printed and distributed. After describing how they hoped to destroy the Church, it says this:

Alta Vendita: “In a hundred years time… bishops and priests will think they are marching behind the banner of the keys of Peter, when in fact they will be following our flag… The reforms will have to be brought about in the name of obedience.”

After reading that quote, two words come to mind: fiat accompli
 
Thank you for your kind words. I have been thinking deeply about these issues for a long time. There are other reasons for my desire to join the F.S.S.P., such as my desire for a greater common life than is available in the diocesan priesthood. However, I truly believe that the more traditional Masses that are offered --be it through the F.S.S.P., Institute of Christ the King, or diocesan priests offering the Extraordinary form-- the better off the Church will be. The conclusion I have come to though, for me, is that I cannot effect the changes in the way the Ordinary Form is offered that I thought I would be able to as a diocesan priest (e.g., Gregorian chant, only male altar servers, and the like), and I don’t think I can live within the diocesan structure for much longer. Please keep me in your prayers.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd
Father,

First let me say: CONGRADULATIONS. I am very happy for you. I will be praying for your intention. The FSSP are great priests. I listen to the sermons of Fr. Wolf from Kansas City, at www.audiosancto.com. His sermons are some of the best.

I actually read what you wrote above after posting my last post. If I would have read it first, I wouldn’t have written what I did. Please do keep us posted on whether or not you are accepted into the FSSP.
 
Father,

First let me say: CONGRADULATIONS. I am very happy for you. I will be praying for your intention. The FSSP are great priests. I listen to the sermons of Fr. Wolf from Kansas City, at www.audiosancto.com. His sermons are some of the best.

I actually read what you wrote above after posting my last post. If I would have read it first, I wouldn’t have written what I did. Please do keep us posted on whether or not you are accepted into the FSSP.
Thank you. At this time, I just need the signature of my bishop. That’s the hard part.
 
But what if this act of obedience, combined with other acts of “obedience”, is killing their faith? What if the watering down of everything Catholic, combined with the forbidding of reverence, is destroying their Catholic Faith? What if the continuous aggiornamento has resulted in the *lex orandi *no longer corresponding to the Catholic lex credendi, and as such weakening their faith (which would be the natural effect). Would such obedience, which ends by destroying, or at least diminishing thier faith, be true obedience? Or would it be sinful?

What if God allowed, as a punishment for sins, wolves in sheeps clothing insert themselves into the Church, rise to levels of authority, and begin to attack the faith from within? Would it be best to simply obey them and lose the faith (a well as our eternal soul)? Or should they be resisted?

Is the virtue of obedience is an absolute, or is it a balance point between two extremes? If it is a balance between two extremes, does that mean we should obey in all things, or only in all that is not sinful? Is it sinful to place oneself in an occaision of sin? How is it not an occaision of sin to attend, week after week, a Mass in which the liturgy has been stripped of its Catholic Spirit and remade according to the image and likeness of a Protestant (Episcopal) service… or worse?

Lex orandi, lex credendi. The way we pray is the way we will believe. If the liturgy is remade after the fashion of Cranmer’s service, and reverence is stamped out, what do we expect to happen to the faithful? Answer: They will become the unfaithful.

There must come a time when the wolves are resisted. It is the faith that is at stake, and the salvation of the souls of millions.

A priest told me that in our large archdiocese, out of all the Priests only 5 have the faith. All the rest are heretics. This, of course, is due in large part to the seminaries which have been corrupt for many decades. The same Priest recently read the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX and told me personally that he was taught, as true, every single one of the errors that were solemnly condemned.

I’m sorry Father. I have read some of your posts and I know you are a good Priest. I wish we had more like you. But the false obedience, which has muzzled those who should have spoken up and/or resisted, is precisely what has caused the mess that we are in.

I am going to end with a quote from Alta Vendita. I’m sure you are aware of it. It is the Masonic document that describes their goal and means to be employed in destroying the Church. The document fell into the hands of Pope Leo XIII (or was it Pius IX), who personally paid to have it printed and distributed. After describing how they hoped to destroy the Church, it says this:

Alta Vendita: “In a hundred years time… bishops and priests will think they are marching behind the banner of the keys of Peter, when in fact they will be following our flag… The reforms will have to be brought about in the name of obedience.”

After reading that quote, two words come to mind: fiat accompli
 
I don’t know… I think a lot of work still needs to be done…

Can someone explain what was happening with the Aboriginal dance at Gospel procession during the closing Mass… men in grass skirts and bare chests, with something that was not recognizable as an Alleluia verse being sung? Why were extra-ordinary ministers distributing Holy Communion, when hundreds of priest who were concelebrating did not? And why were priests receiving by intinction when no purificator, communion paten, or corporal was available to prevent the loss of a drop of the Precious Blood? I love the fact that the Holy Father is distributing Holy Communion to the faithful who are kneeling and receiving on the tongue, but, as a simple priest, I do not have the authority to mandate this be done by those who receive from me. I liked the Gregorian chant, but we still had a rendition of “Taste and See” that was fit for a lounge act. Sorry for the negative post, but no one else seemed to be saying these things. We still have a long road to travel back to the reverence and awe the Lord deserves in the Mass.
I wondered about that dance also, and the best I came up with from reading about it is that this Aboriginal dance is only done to worship God, in other words, they don’t do that dance at any other time. Not saying that I would want that here in our Country, but it is a part of their worship. Apparently at the beginning of his journey there, they lined up as he passed through them in a rite that celebrated his “safe passage.”
It also bothered me about the Priests whom I saw receiving by intinction with no patens, purificator, or corporal, for exactly the reasons you sited. It has always bothered me that our Dear Lord’s Precious Blood could, just one drop, fall to the ground or floor and be trampled upon. I’m not a fan of extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist either, as I have seen that abused far too many times.
I use to genuflect before receiving Holy Communion, and once, years ago, a Priest one day, out of the blue, (I had been doing that for years), gave a little talk in his daily Mass homily about how people are not to be genuflecting before receiving Holy Communion, he didn’t say anything about how I could kneel, but just asked that if anyone had intended to genuflect that he would appreciate if they would take note that the norm in the U.S. was to stand and make a sign of reverence with a bow of the head. So, that day and ever since then, that is what I have done. I still receive on the tongue however. (He made no mention of that and that was also what I had been doing for years.) After Mass that day, on my way out, he thanked me for both paying attention when he was speaking and for my obediance. I would have never thought to disobey him, unless he was really way off. (Which in my mind, he wasn’t too far off, if you know what I mean, but I did know that that was the norm.) I just didn’t understand why, all of a sudden, the change.
It has always made me sad. I’ll just offer that up though. Now that I know I can kneel, I am a little too unsteady on my feet to do that without a kneeler, or a Communion rail. I’d love it if we brought those back!!
But one thing I do want is a Mass like the kind you speak of Father, the kind that I had growing up, the reverance and awe that worshipping the Lord that way that brings such peace, and love to our souls.
Thank God for holy men like you. I want my children and grand-children to experience the Mass that you speak of. I want them to be able to worship our Lord and to know that they really are.
 
This is the way the old priest at our parish explained it. The Church is like a giant and the pope is the head. Giants move very slowly and act very slowly, and so does the Church. The pope is slowly making changes. He cannot personally look over every detail of the WYD and make sure it is to his taste. So, he slowly changes certain parts, and over time he will make the necessary changes as he is guided by the Holy Ghost.

I agree, I want swift actions. As my pastor said "If I was pope and I saw a bishop doing something wrong, my first instinct is to say ‘Off with their heads!’ but the pope and God aren’t that way, they both move slowly and make change slowly. It has been over 2000 years since God has smote his enemies with lightning and trumpets. Ever since Christ came to earth, he has been much slower to act on his anger. The pope is just following God’s example.

I think that we have to realise that the pope is trying to move the Church in a better direction without loosing any of her members. Just like a giant who moves slowly because he doesn’t want to lose an arm or leg, because that could seriously hurt the giant, and would kill the leg or arm. Also, the pope is trying to bring in the SSPX, the Anglicans, the Eastern Churches, etc… and he has to make doubly, triply sure that he does not make a mistake. He has to make sure that what he says is in complete accordance with the Church’s teachings.

Any-ways, I say give the pope some slack and realise that he has a big job and is doing awesome at it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top