The pope's power

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Hello Pneuma.

I’m beginning to sense a familiar pattern to your questions. Is the real question tickling your fancy this: “IF your (meaning ours) Pope were really an Apostle, he’d work a few miracles to prove it and since he doesn’t walk on water or multiply loaves, why do you silly Catholics cling to him as if he were an Apostle from the early days of the Church?”

Is this it? Did you come here to prove us silly for behaving loyally towards the Papacy? It won’t work. Thousands have tried and thousands have failed. But it does work in crowds where there are like minded dare-devils who relish the opportunity to “prove” God isn’t really present in our Church because if He was He’d do everything that is demanded of Him to prove He kept His Word to us. Oh gee, I’ve taken some of the fun out of it. :o

BTW, how come you ignored by question and invitation?

Glenda
 
PNEUMA said:
There is love in abundance in Christ, there’s also power in abundance in Christ, the problem is lack of faith in Christ’s power and love.

"And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief."
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Yes - there is love in abundance in God - for God IS Love (1 John 4:7-8).

That was not my point.

What I wanted to share is that while many talk (endlessly) about the importance of faith, few seem to bring in AGAPE as the absolutely critical component that it is.
If one wishes to have faith such that they can “move mountains”…Agape must be central to it.
Moving closer to God and being able to do the things that you speak of means growing in and ultimately becoming perfected in Love.

Peace
James
 
rcwitness said:
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…Remember, St Thomas doubted in the resurrection and was shown by the Lord His wounds. Jesus told them, “Blessed are those who do not see, yet believe.” …
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He meant “Blessed are those who do not see” Him resurrected, and “yet believe” He resurrected !

He did not mean “Blessed are those who do not see” any miracles, and yet believe, in God’s ability to do the impossible.
 
glendab said:
Hello Pneuma.

I’m beginning to sense a familiar pattern to your questions. Is the real question tickling your fancy this: “IF your (meaning ours) Pope were really an Apostle, he’d work a few miracles to prove it and since he doesn’t walk on water or multiply loaves, why do you silly Catholics cling to him as if he were an Apostle from the early days of the Church?”

Is this it? …
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No, he doesn’t have to prove anything. The question is why he doesn’t do greater miracles ? is it lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible ?
 
JRKH said:
Yes - there is love in abundance in God - for God IS Love (1 John 4:7-8).

That was not my point.

What I wanted to share is that while many talk (endlessly) about the importance of faith, few seem to bring in AGAPE as the absolutely critical component that it is.
If one wishes to have faith such that they can “move mountains”…Agape must be central to it.
Moving closer to God and being able to do the things that you speak of means growing in and ultimately becoming perfected in Love.

Peace
James
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I understand what you say “all you need is love” Beatles 1967

Jesus showed the greatest or perfect love, but He didn’t calm the storm or walk on water with His love, neither did Peter.

It was their belief in God’s superiority over nature, that did the trick 🙂

 
Hello Pneuma.
PNEUMA said:
Jesus showed the greatest or perfect love, but He didn’t calm the storm or walk on water with His love, neither did Peter.

It was their belief in God’s superiority over nature, that did the trick 🙂
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Who do you mean by “their” in your statement? If God didn’t calm the storm, (God = Jesus) then who did? Are you implying there is someone other than Jesus who is a god like maybe jehova?

No, it wasn’t “their belief” that calmed the storm, God did it because Peter was frightened and asked Him to. I get a different meaning out of the analogy that you use.

As for your response to my post preceding, you still seem to be demanding that the current Holy Father do specific types of miracles to prove something. The reason God doesn’t do those types of miracle thru our current Holy Father in known only to the mind of God. We can only speculate and it really isn’t necessary.

My original answer to you on this point was very telling: Pope Francis DOES do miracles each and every day at least ONCE A DAY. He brings God to us Sacramentally in the Eucharist to fulfill what God said He would do - make His dwelling among us till the end of days. This is accomplished at each and every Mass Pope Francis celebrates and would happen no matter how many personal sins he may have on his poor soul. He doesn’t have to be a Saint to accomplish this particular miracle. The gift of Ordination does the work as long as form and matter are accorded. This is a fact. God Promised it - He delivers it.

God is present in all the Tabernacles throughout the world as is said, even unto the end of time. Just because you may not see Him there or even believe He is, doesn’t change the fact that He is really, substantially and wholly present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in each and every Host post Transubstantiation. Perhaps some day you’ll accept this “hidden” miracle as good enough proof. Until then, God bless your poverty of heart.

Glenda

Glenda
 
PNEUMA said:
The question is why he doesn’t do greater miracles ? is it lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible ?
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Miracles do not occur without Gods will regardless how strong the faith is. Examples have been provided above.

catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0032.html

CCC-65 In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
 
glendab said:
Hello Pneuma.
Who do you mean by “their” in your statement? If God didn’t calm the storm, (God = Jesus) then who did? Are you implying there is someone other than Jesus who is a god like maybe jehova?

No, it wasn’t “their belief” that calmed the storm, God did it because Peter was frightened and asked Him to. I get a different meaning out of the analogy that you use…
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Yes I mean the heavenly Father that Jesus spoke of, that is His and our God (John 20:17) it’s lack of faith in the heavenly Father’s ability to do the impossible, that’s the problem

BTW: it’s Yahweh not Jehova
 
GaryTaylor said:
Miracles do not occur without Gods will regardless how strong the faith is. Examples have been provided above.

catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0032.html

CCC-65 In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.
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Who said anything about asking God to do something against His will, or asking Him for “vision or revelation” ?
 
PNEUMA said:
I understand what you say “all you need is love” Beatles 1967
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Great song - but let’s not reduce this to a mere slogan.
Scripture is clear on both the necessity and superiority of Love in the order of grace.
Jesus showed the greatest or perfect love, but He didn’t calm the storm or walk on water with His love, neither did Peter.
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It was their belief in God’s superiority over nature, that did the trick 🙂
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I disagree that Jesus did not calm the storm with belief, and assert that He DID do it with Love. Perfect Love brings perfect trust and it is trust in that Love that did the trick.
Likewise Peter did not walk on water from simple belief. It was His Love and accompanying trust in Jesus that made him step from the boat.

Belief actually counts for little in these matters. Trust (which naturally accompanies true Love) is what counts.

Peace
James
 
PNEUMA said:
He meant “Blessed are those who do not see” Him resurrected, and “yet believe” He resurrected !

He did not mean “Blessed are those who do not see” any miracles, and yet believe, in God’s ability to do the impossible.
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Well, I used that as a strong example of a miracle… Which was Confirmed to those who were witnesses in order to establish the living Gospel that the Apostles were to lay a foundation for.

Even John the Baptist had his moments of doubt and sent for some words from the master to Confirm his faith. He was Confirmed in hearing that the lame are walking again, the blind now see, the dead raised, etc.

These miracles are the good works of the Messiah, which had meaning behind them. They were a sign for those who had faith that their faith was to rest on the one who could answer their prayers and forgive their sins!

His miracles were to show that He was not merely a Holy man, but that He was THE Holy man who would set all men free. The apostles’ miracles were not to prove they were anything of importance, but that their ministry in the gospel was important. Likewise, the Pope has no need of public miracles when the Gospel of Jesus Christ Our Redeemer is well established into a kingdom which has stood the test of time. We know the full Teachings of Christ through the office of the Pope.

Maybe the grace of miracles through the Church leaders for the sake of Confirmation has been withheld by the Lord. Maybe He has determined there is sufficient grace through the history of what He has done through His Church. Maybe this is a time for us to suffer our afflictions for the sake of Jesus. Through our good Spirit (that is, His Spirit) even in our sufferring we are able to bring to Jesus His faithfull people, which is better than a crowd of faithless who like to tear to shreds the Light of this world. When Jesus had this crowd following Him, He only demanded their faith in His Eucharist to widdle down the crowd.

Peace
Michael
 
PNEUMA said:
ok, why doesn’t the 21st century christians, do what the 1st century christians did ?
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They are. There are many people being tortured and killed because they refuse to give up their faith. This is especially true in Moslem countries. Martyrdom is alive and well in the church [no pun intended]
 
GaryTaylor said:
PNEUMA;11902882:
No, he doesn’t have to prove anything. The question is why he doesn’t do greater miracles ? is it lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible ?
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And the answer is, its Gods will, not the Popes. You understand this, yes? So what is your question?
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Do you seriously mean, its Gods will, that the current pope don’t do greater miracles, like the first pope Peter did ?

To me it sounds like you say it’s God’s fault, not the pope’s, in order to explain away, the lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible ?
 
PNEUMA said:
Do you seriously mean, its Gods will
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I seriously mean its God will. Nothing occurs, not even your next breath with out it.
PNEUMA said:
To me it sounds like you say it’s God’s fault, not the pope’s, in order to explain away, the lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible ?
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Can’t imagine how you arrive at this conjecture. My point is clear. God provides the grace.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Can’t imagine how you arrive at this conjecture. My point is clear. God provides the grace.
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Your just drifting further away, from the topic.

it’s lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible, that’s the problem and the reason for lack of powerful works, like the ones Jesus and Peter did

 
Hello Pneuma.
PNEUMA said:
Yes I mean the heavenly Father that Jesus spoke of, that is His and our God (John 20:17) it’s lack of faith in the heavenly Father’s ability to do the impossible, that’s the problem

BTW: it’s Yahweh not Jehova
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Thanks for the reply. So are you a Yahwehist in the fuller sense of the word? And can you explain this newer theology for us? Thanks a bunch.

Glenda
 
PNEUMA said:
Your just drifting further away, from the topic.

it’s lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible, ]
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Right, God ability, that is the point, though Him is the impossible, so we are now in agreement. Great, Biblical Gods ministers do the watering, God supplies the grace.

You would have to know what Gods will is in regards to each specific individual, to compare any Pope to St Peter by determining they should be comparable by some degree of miracles ,doesn’t stand to reason. You don’t know Gods will for each specific individual on the path to eternal salvation or their trials. So in the larger sense of the supernatural its a blessing by God that the Pope is where he is as Pope, Bishop of Rome. In the personal sense its not for us to take a spiritual inventory to determine his sainthood while he is still very much in the vine yard of the Lord. Perhaps he shall be a Saint as the Saints who were Popes he is canonizing.

Still, the Faith is predicated by God, its a virtue itself, a blessing. You cannot will something to occur which is not Gods will. You can only be in accord with His will. Which the Pope is or its safe to state he wouldn’t be where he is.

So why does he need to perform a miracle and to what degree would satisfy man? Didn’t Jesus speak about this? “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah” “Though Christ is always ready to hear and answer holy desires and prayers, yet those who ask amiss, ask and have not. Signs were granted by God to those who desired them to confirm their faith, as Abraham and Gideon; but denied to those who demanded them to excuse their unbelief. The resurrection of Christ from the dead by his own power, called here the sign of the prophet Jonah, was the great proof.” Commentary Biblehub
 
GaryTaylor said:
Right, God ability, that is the point, though Him is the impossible, so we are now in agreement. Great, Biblical Gods ministers do the watering, God supplies the grace.

You would have to know what Gods will is in regards to each specific individual, to compare any Pope to St Peter by determining they should be comparable by some degree of miracles ,doesn’t stand to reason. You don’t know Gods will for each specific individual…
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Again it sounds like, you don’t think it’s God’s will that we ask Him for impossible things (miracles) and that’s why it doesn’t happen, which is completely wrong. It’s our lack of faith in God’s ability to do the impossible, that’s the problem. God is willing to do miracles !
 
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