P
pro_universal
Guest
Again, this is not the case. What reading commentaries will do is to make sure that you don’t let your own biases and limited understanding lead you astray in interpreting the book.
- Status
P
pro_universal
Guest
This is quite simply false. There is no command to kill people for not converting in Islam, and this has never been the practice in Islamic societies.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Let us not get carried away with the ‘out of context’ excuse for 9;5. A few verses down, 9;29 puts the lie to the ‘out of context’ excuse.
Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"
Sunan Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2635:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. “I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade.” Al-Hurmuzan said, “Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau.” So, ‘Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, “Let one of you talk to me!” Al-Mughira replied, “Ask whatever you wish.” The other asked, “Who are you?” Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- “Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master.” (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu’ man said to Al-Mughira, “If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah’s Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah’s Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday).”
cont.
Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"
Sunan Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2635:
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. “I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade.” Al-Hurmuzan said, “Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau.” So, ‘Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, “Let one of you talk to me!” Al-Mughira replied, “Ask whatever you wish.” The other asked, “Who are you?” Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- “Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master.” (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu’ man said to Al-Mughira, “If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah’s Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah’s Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday).”
cont.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
“Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from then and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhajirs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai’ (property abandoned by fleeing non-Muslims] except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers.) If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from the Jizya [tax]. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.” Sahih Muslim vol.3:4294
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”
P
pro_universal
Guest
Rodrigo,
Well, aside from you repeatedly claiming that you are an expert in Islam, there’s absolutely no reason to take your strings of random bits of text seriously.
Hadith is not law. There are so many hadiths that one person could spend a lifetime reading them and not get through it all. Using google to find a few that support your claims is by no means a good method of interpreting Islam.
The proof of this fact is that you cannot find a single Muslim organization who agrees that Rodrigo’s use of hadiths is valid. You can repost them until you are blue in the face, but the fact is, if there is not a single Muslim authority on the planet who finds your claim convincing, that is powerful evidence that you are wrong.
These antics remind me of when I was Catholic, and people would take quotes from a Pope here and a treatise there and then mix in some “Queen of Heaven” papers to prove that Catholics hate the bible and worship Mary. All well and good to use texts in your arguments, but if not a single person of the target religion agrees with your claim, it is because you’re wrong.
Well, aside from you repeatedly claiming that you are an expert in Islam, there’s absolutely no reason to take your strings of random bits of text seriously.
Hadith is not law. There are so many hadiths that one person could spend a lifetime reading them and not get through it all. Using google to find a few that support your claims is by no means a good method of interpreting Islam.
The proof of this fact is that you cannot find a single Muslim organization who agrees that Rodrigo’s use of hadiths is valid. You can repost them until you are blue in the face, but the fact is, if there is not a single Muslim authority on the planet who finds your claim convincing, that is powerful evidence that you are wrong.
These antics remind me of when I was Catholic, and people would take quotes from a Pope here and a treatise there and then mix in some “Queen of Heaven” papers to prove that Catholics hate the bible and worship Mary. All well and good to use texts in your arguments, but if not a single person of the target religion agrees with your claim, it is because you’re wrong.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
BS: the fact is that Muslims have been applying 9;29 (it’s the Quran, Muslim) and its associated hadiths for centuries in justifying persecution of minorities with the JIZYAH. This proves beyond doubt that 9;29 is not applied only for a specific period of time but for all time.
The rest of your post is irrelevant. I don’t care if you ever were a Catholic - it is clear you are a biased Muslim. Your Islamo apologetics have been exposed yet again.
Chau,
Cid
P
pro_universal
Guest
Not only is it factually incorrect to say that Muslims forced conversion as a rule or mentioned this in any of their wars…
You didn’t address the point. You are making claims about another religion which not a single member of that religion will agree are correct. That is proof enough that your reading of the texts is wrong.
The Jizyah system not only wasn’t universally instituted, it was a lower tax than usual (for the period) and it excused payors from military service (which was a risky affair in those days-people hated giving their sons to the military.) That’s hardly “violent coercion.”
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Really? You want to read the hadiths again?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”
What does, ‘then they save heir lives and property from me…’ mean?
What does this mean?
…Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute)…
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”
What does, ‘then they save heir lives and property from me…’ mean?
What does this mean?
…Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute)…
P
pro_universal
Guest
Again, you refuse to address the point:
This is you citing a few lines from literally hundreds of thousands of lines.
No Muslims agree with you. That is proof that your claims about what Muslims think their religion requires are wrong.
That’s a very simple way of checking your construal and understanding of a religion. When not one single member agrees that your interpretation is true to the religion, you are wrong.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Whatever do you mean? Do you mean ’ fight those who don’t believe in Allah or else’ is not converting by force?
Do you mean the millions of Muslims who were happy to suck off jizyah from their non-Muslim minorities do not agree that 9;29 should be applied forever?
Do you mean the millions of Muslims who were happy to suck off jizyah from their non-Muslim minorities do not agree that 9;29 should be applied forever?
P
pro_universal
Guest
You do not understand the jizyah system, and it wasn’t universally applied anyway.
And I mean what I mean: You are claiming that unprovoked war and coerced conversion are permitted by Islam.
The fact that not a single Muslim will agree with you on this is proof that you are wrong about what Islam requires. Do you understand the concept? If there is a whole religion, and every single member of that religion agrees that your interpretation and claims are not true…that is as much proof positive as possible that you are in fact wrong.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
BS, pro. Keep on claiming not a single Muslim will agree with me. Nobody believes you since you provide no evidence. I provide the evidence that Caliph Umar agrees with me, and that Muslims for 14 centuries agree with me by virtue of the jizyah system.
Here is the hadith again where Caliph Umar agrees with me:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans…
Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya…
Oh… I suppose Caliph Umar is not a Muslim eh?
Here is the hadith again where Caliph Umar agrees with me:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:
Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:
'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans…
Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya…
Oh… I suppose Caliph Umar is not a Muslim eh?
P
pro_universal
Guest
14 centuries? Huh? Where was the Jizyah system in use for that long!?
Anyway, you have my point about your interpretations. If you want to have a discussion, I’ll be happy to, but your repeated “BS” prefaced posts aren’t getting us anywhere.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Well, jizyah was applied right up to the 20th century by the Ottomans.
Sir Thomas Arnold, an early 20th century orientalist, gives an example of a Christian Arab tribe which avoided paying the jizya altogether by fighting alongside Muslim armies “such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighbourhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
So, let’s see - 20th century is 14 centuries later than Mo’s time isn’t it?
Sir Thomas Arnold, an early 20th century orientalist, gives an example of a Christian Arab tribe which avoided paying the jizya altogether by fighting alongside Muslim armies “such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighbourhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
So, let’s see - 20th century is 14 centuries later than Mo’s time isn’t it?
S
sadie2723
Guest
I think that Papa Ben is just telling it like it is. Thank goodness for that.
What I think is telling is that the Muslems got all ticked off about being told that their mohamad was teaching evil and violence…and so what do they do? They fire bomb a couple of churches on the west bank.
Check it out:
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214128,00.html
Oh, that religion of peace…
I just hope that the Pope does not back down on this deal. It is time for a leader to stand up to these people. We can’t let them continue to burn our churches and kill Christians all over the world and do nothing about it.
P
pro_universal
Guest
sadie,
What do you propose be done about “it”?
K
kepha444
Guest
Ohhh welllllll bob…look at the chriatian God ,who says"it’s my way or the Highway" another bullet to bite???
R
Rachel_Malloy
Guest
This is a general reminder to everyone to remember their charity and tact when posting in NCR. There have been a number of snide comments made.
Thank you and God bless-
Rachel
Thank you and God bless-
Rachel
K
kepha444
Guest
F
Fergal
Guest
***This is what the quaran says to do to Christians and Jews ***
quran . 004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Did you miss the part about slaying us? If you did here is another part of the quaran restating their commandment to kill us.
quaran 008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Here is some more dealing specifically with terror.
quaran 008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Oh… I forgot… they are peaceful…? Jesus never commanded us to kill. He never killed… He healed, loved, and saved us.
quran . 004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Did you miss the part about slaying us? If you did here is another part of the quaran restating their commandment to kill us.
quaran 008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Here is some more dealing specifically with terror.
quaran 008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Oh… I forgot… they are peaceful…? Jesus never commanded us to kill. He never killed… He healed, loved, and saved us.
- Status