The Pope's words on Islam

[pro_universal]

You said I claimed that Muslims teach forced conversion. Where did I say this?

I thought you were defending the quote in the opening post, and using “subjugation of non-muslims” and as equivalent.

Reading back, maybe I was wrong. My comment goes to the quote itself.

 

[exoflare]

Some of the material, but certainly not all. I’m currently reading some commentaries to the Quran alongside the Quran itself. I actually like what I see. It’s similar to Christianity, but clearer about rules for living and the theology.

Using the word “taqiyya” identifies you as someone who gets most of his information from Jihadwatch type sources, though.

The “holy book” and sahih hadiths of Islam, combined with the examples of behavior of the Muslims I’ve dealt with in my own life is proof enough.

 

[exoflare]

I thought you were defending the quote in the opening post, and using “subjugation of non-muslims” and as equivalent.

Reading back, maybe I was wrong. My comment goes to the quote itself.

Okay, I guess that was a misunderstanding. Anyway no I wasn’t referring to the previous quote.

 

[pro_universal]

I was rather referring to the part of the statment:

“Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman,”

Well, one thing would be rules for cleanliness:

daily bathing, constant washing of the hands and feet, and purity of food were new things that Muhammad introduced.

So was the idea of a set of defined rights and duties for minorities within the state…that turned out to make Islam one of the best protectors of Jews for most of history. I can’t call that evil.

The system of mandatory tax to be paid to the poor was a good one for social justice too.

What were the “new evil things” you think Muhammad brought?

 

[pro_universal]

The “holy book” and sahih hadiths of Islam, combined with the examples of behavior of the Muslims I’ve dealt with in my own life is proof enough.

You actually read the Quran and found it to be violent?? Did you honestly read the whole thing?

What about tafsirs? That would be commentaries you could make sense of…I don’t see how anyone could possibly read all of the hadiths in his spare time.

 

[exoflare]

Some of the material, but certainly not all. I’m currently reading some commentaries to the Quran alongside the Quran itself. I actually like what I see. It’s similar to Christianity, but clearer about rules for living and the theology.

Here’s the thing, though. Do you really think that the parts you like somehow justify the other “some” of the material that is bad?

 

[pro_universal]

Here’s the thing, though. Do you really think that the parts you like somehow justify the other “some” of the material that is bad?

There isn’t any truly bad material in there. Coming from a Catholic background and reading this book, I really don’t find anything that controversial. There is no “kill them because they aren’t like you!” command anywhere in it.

Seriously, I recommend you read it…the book repeats “be moderate, don’t exceed limits” almost every page. I think that’s the main message in terms of behavior.

 

[exoflare]

You actually read the Quran and found it to be violent?? Did you honestly read the whole thing?

What about tafsirs? That would be commentaries you could make sense of…I don’t see how anyone could possibly read all of the hadiths in his spare time.

I have not read the whole Quran yet. Like the Bible, I’m still working on it. But here’s the thing… Islam does not have a “catechism” of sorts that you can just go to to find the teaching on any particular doctrine or moral issue. The Quran is actually supposed to fill that role as a “clear straightforward” guide for all times. Yet the fact that there are tasfirs in the first place proves this not to be so. Furthermore, there is no definite authority in Islam and so there is no way to settle disagreements among the more prominent scholars once and for all.

Either way, the evidence is troubling. If you try to read the Quran as a straightforward guide to morals, you see direct commands to do immoral things (even though they oftentimes directly contradict other verses). And if you trust the tasfirs, then the main question is “which one do I trust”?

 

[exoflare]

There isn’t any truly bad material in there. Coming from a Catholic background and reading this book, I really don’t find anything that controversial. There is no “kill them because they aren’t like you!” command anywhere in it.

Again, do not put words in my mouth. Did I claim there was a command like that one?

 

[Iraneaus]

What were the “new evil things” you think Muhammad brought?

Honestly, I don’t have enough knowledge of the subject to feel I can give an educated answer. I truly just wanted to objectively here what you had to say.

As far as cleanliness I don’t know if you could attribute that to a “new” thought.

I am not familiar with the second enough.

And of the third, although it is not evil, it could be debated if this was truly a good thing.

 

[pro_universal]

I have not read the whole Quran yet. Like the Bible, I’m still working on it. But here’s the thing… Islam does not have a “catechism” of sorts that you can just go to to find the teaching on any particular doctrine or moral issue. The Quran is actually supposed to fill that role as a “clear straightforward” guide for all times. Yet the fact that there are tasfirs in the first place proves this not to be so. Furthermore, there is no definite authority in Islam and so there is no way to settle disagreements among the more prominent scholars once and for all.

Either way, the evidence is troubling. If you try to read the Quran as a straightforward guide to morals, you see direct commands to do immoral things (even though they oftentimes directly contradict other verses). And if you trust the tasfirs, then the main question is “which one do I trust”?

I see absolutely no direct command in the Quran to do immoral things. Not even contradicted ones.

But as far as authority, there is certainly debate, but the main ingredients of the faith are agreed upon. For example, you won’t find a single major Islamic figure who thinks murder is justified for any reason. It goes on…yes, there are differences, but the main principles are generally agreed upon. So it’s not that difficult to figure out what Islam teaches…and it is in fact pretty much in the Book.

 

[pro_universal]

Honestly, I don’t have enough knowledge of the subject to feel I can give an educated answer. I truly just wanted to objectively here what you had to say.

As far as cleanliness I don’t know if you could attribute that to a “new” thought.

I am not familiar with the second enough.

And of the third, although it is not evil, it could be debated if this was truly a good thing.

You seriously think that demanding that the wealthy give something to the poor is even debatably good!?

I don’t have any qualms about that. Social justice is good for everyone, imho.

 

[exoflare]

More on this later, but here is a link to the 3 most accepted English translations of the Quran for anybody who is curious. (all 3 translations are directly paralleled in every single chapter)

Read this with a fresh mind, take the words for what they are, and see what you think.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

 

[pro_universal]

More on this later, but here is a link to the 3 most accepted English translations of the Quran. (all 3 translations are directly paralleled in every single chapter)

Read this with a fresh mind, take the words for what they are, and see what you think.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

I have my own paper copy right here sitting on the desk, Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation. Thanks for the link though.

I think it’s also interesting to look at what Muslims call their five pillars. Pretty uncontroversial, wouldn’t you say?

 

[exoflare]

I have my own paper copy right here sitting on the desk, Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation. Thanks for the link though.

I think it’s also interesting to look at what Muslims call their five pillars. Pretty uncontroversial, wouldn’t you say?

I figured you might, but it was more for the others who were viewing this thread and may not have a hard copy.

 

[Iraneaus]

You seriously think that demanding that the wealthy give something to the poor is even debatably good!?

I don’t have any qualms about that. Social justice is good for everyone, imho.

Just depends on what you call social justice. Like I said I do not know what all the Quaran says about this so I am no expert on the matter.

 

[exoflare]

I have my own paper copy right here sitting on the desk, Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation. Thanks for the link though.

I think it’s also interesting to look at what Muslims call their five pillars. Pretty uncontroversial, wouldn’t you say?

They may seem uncontroversial until you know the entirety of what each one entails. For example, the first pillar, “…Mohammed is his messenger” alone is pretty meaningless until you know what it was that Mohammed even taught in the first place. And to get into the scope of all that is not nearly so “uncontroversial”.

 

[pro_universal]

They may seem uncontroversial until you know the entirety of what each one entails. For example, the first pillar, “…Mohammed is his messenger” alone is pretty meaningless until you know what it was that Mohammed even taught in the first place. And to get into the scope of all that is not nearly so “uncontroversial”.

Well, I’ve certainly been taking a hard look at the contents of the religion, and I’m not finding anything that bad.

 

[exoflare]

Well, I’ve certainly been taking a hard look at the contents of the religion, and I’m not finding anything that bad.

Like I said, I’ll get into it more later. Unfortunately I have to go to bed for now.

btw, I’m sorry for accusing you of being a Muslim as a knee-jerk response like that. It was unfounded, in any case.

 

[pro_universal]

Like I said, I’ll get into it more later. Unfortunately I have to go to bed for now.

btw, I’m sorry for accusing you of being a Muslim as a knee-jerk response like that. It was unfounded, in any case.

exoflare, no hard feelings at all, and I hope you sleep well. It’s only dinnertime for me!