The Pope's words on Islam

[FightingFat]

212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/18796.php?index=18796&lang=en#TESTO%20IN%20LINGUA%20INGLESE

This is the Vaticans response to the growing anger.

what emerges clearly from the Holy Father’s discourses is a warning, addressed to Western culture, to avoid “the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom” (homily, September 10). A just consideration of the religious dimension is, in fact, an essential premise for fruitful dialogue with the great cultures and religions of the world. And indeed, in concluding his address in Regensburg, Benedict XVI affirmed how “the world’s profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures”.
What is clear then, is the Holy Father’s desire to cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue towards other religions and cultures, including, of course, Islam.

It saddens me the manner in which this thread was started. We all need to take the Holy Father’s lead in condemning violence and working for peace.

 

[FightingFat]

In his speech at Regensburg University, the German-born Pope explored the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.
The emperor’s words were, he said: “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” Benedict said “I quote” twice to stress the words were not his **and added that violence was “incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul”. **

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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5347876.stm

Cestusdei, aren’t you supposed to be a priest?

 

[Quatsch]

I see absolutely no direct command in the Quran to do immoral things. Not even contradicted ones.

Unfortunately, the number of people doing immoral things citing Islam as their reason is what we see, today.

Even more unfortunately, if you do believe the Quran, then you are denying all the words of the prophets in the Bible and the Holy Trinity.

But as far as authority, there is certainly debate

“Debate” does not accurately describe the situation. That would be like saying the Spanish Inquisition was just a “debate.” But the Church has realized Her wrong in the Inquisition and I am confident that death and destruction on that same order of magnitude will not be incurred by the Church again. However, right now we see “debating” Muslims (granted not all, and it is not condoned by the majority of them…just as I imagine people far removed from the Inquisition would have been appalled) murdering each other. Far from a “debate” in any case.

but the main ingredients of the faith are agreed upon. For example, you won’t find a single major Islamic figure who thinks murder is justified for any reason.

I don’t have to come up with a figure to know that blanket statements like this are never true.

It goes on…yes, there are differences, but the main principles are generally agreed upon. So it’s not that difficult to figure out what Islam teaches…and it is in fact pretty much in the Book.

What does it teach about how to deal with non-believers?
From this translation of the Quran:

9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Anyone who takes these words to heart would then “strive hard” (“make war” in another translation I have seen…) against anyone who does not believe the same thing as they. I guess you’re right, it is not difficult to see what Islam teaches, as this came from the book.

 

[pro_universal]

Unfortunately, the number of people doing immoral things citing Islam as their reason is what we see, today.

Even more unfortunately, if you do believe the Quran, then you are denying all the words of the prophets in the Bible and the Holy Trinity.

Well, maybe that’s how you see it. But that’s not really the issue.

“Debate” does not accurately describe the situation. That would be like saying the Spanish Inquisition was just a “debate.” But the Church has realized Her wrong in the Inquisition and I am confident that death and destruction on that same order of magnitude will not be incurred by the Church again. However, right now we see “debating” Muslims (granted not all, and it is not condoned by the majority of them…just as I imagine people far removed from the Inquisition would have been appalled) murdering each other.

What on earth does this have to do with Islamic teaching? Christians are killing each other also in Christian lands…but it’s not because of Christianity. Neither is that the case with Muslims. It is universally acknowledged that murder is wrong by the different traditions within Islam. There is really no debate on that point.

I was referring to smaller points in the theology, like methods of prayer, etc etc.

What does it teach about how to deal with non-believers?
From this translation of the Quran:
Anyone who takes these words to heart would then “strive hard” (“make war” in another translation I have seen…) against anyone who does not believe the same thing as they. I guess you’re right, it is not difficult to see what Islam teaches, as this came from the book.

Well, if you read the chapter, you’re also talking about a spiritual mission. Aren’t Catholics commanded to strive hard in sharing the faith with others?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that teaching. It isn’t a command to kill, and certainly, none of the Quran has been interpreted by any significant force in Islam to permit murder. Any fighting commanded in the Quran is in self-defense only…that is the overwhelming consensus of Muslims.

Of course, it’s easy to claim that this is a stretch if you just pick a verse here and there, but as we know from Christian disputes, that method of interpretation is sheer folly. Picking a quote out of a chapter that says “use restraint, don’t fight anyone who doesn’t attack you” over and over, and then claiming that the context is meaningless is extremely unfair to the Muslims.

 

[christianley]

“Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

This was a quote used by Pope Benedict, you can read it all at www.zenit.org. It goes on to chastize Islam for it’s preoccupation with using violence, threats, and death to convert others. The Pope is not stupid. He knew what he was saying and how it would be received. He said it anyway. The Holy Father is a man of truth and courage. Viva il Papa!

The Pope told the truth about Islam. It’s good not to have a Pope who is politically correct. Islam needs to grow up.

 

[christianley]

Well, I’ve certainly been taking a hard look at the contents of the religion, and I’m not finding anything that bad.

Just giving permission to plural marriage is bad enough to me. And the way Muslim fundamentalists treat women (based on their own Holy Books) doesn’t strike me as something we want to imitate.

 

[Quatsch]

You’re assuming everyone and anyone can be converted by force. Your answer to “why weren’t all of these people forced to be Muslims over the thousand years or so of Muslim rule?” is very one-sided and doesn’t even pretend to explore other possibilities.

 

[TimOliv]

Benedict XVI is Peter. I stand behind Peter.

 

[Mickey]

“Meanwhile a youth center run by the Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip was slightly damaged by a small explosion on Friday, witnesses told Reuters.”

cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.islam/index.html

Does this surprise anyone?

 

[estesbob]

Attitudes like these towards Muslims have helped convince me to leave Catholicism.

I’m sad when I read these threads. A quote from a medieval Byzantine Emperor about his rivals for power is being used to describe Islam again…it’s as if we’ve learned nothing from a violent, intolerant history.

Thank you, Cestusdei, for being one of many who has helped me to see that Catholicism is not the path to truth that I need to follow.

If I had a nickel for every reason you have given for “leaving” Catholicism I would be a rich man.

 

[jAlex]

There is no problem with evaluating both.

All those nations have ancient communities of other religions that predate the rule of Muslims. If Islam commanded forced conversion, why weren’t all of these people forced to be Muslims over the thousand years or so of Muslim rule?

Answer: because the religion does not command conversion.

Uh… oh … so when the American teenager that showed up in the AlQeda’s video, together with the lucky no. 2 in command, saying that we’ve got to convert our behinds or else, he was joking?

Why did they not force conversion for all the Christians in their land? - Politics my friend… politics.

They knew that if they do it they will have another crusade on their laps. It is a matter of timing.
If you run a search you will find that muslims (the Ottoman Empire) tried to convert at least the Balkans (see the Albanians today) and Spain. They tried that with other countries as well but fortunately, a mass conversion takes more than a couple of decades to take roots. Whatever cultures are left on their countries are now insignificand compared to the majority.

I have yet to see a country having 100% muslims. And this is not because they are getting shy about conversions but because it is impossible!
Christianity thrived as a minority under Roman rulers even if tried to exterminate them. This does not give credit to the Romans though…

Alex.

 

[Lischou]

Iranaeus,

First, it wasn’t the Pope’s statement…he was quoting another work, in the context of a talk about faith and reason. He didn’t even endorse the quote; but neither did he disown it.

Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, he’s getting a little to close to the truth and that’s what’s really bothering everyone? It has been my experience that the truth hurts sometimes. Otherwise, your statement above is essentially correct; the Pope was using this historical quote (not his own) to prove a point about faith and reason.

Lisa

 

[Lischou]

There is no problem with evaluating both.

All those nations have ancient communities of other religions that predate the rule of Muslims. If Islam commanded forced conversion, why weren’t all of these people forced to be Muslims over the thousand years or so of Muslim rule?

You need to read more on history in Spain. There were forced conversions that went back and forth depending on who ruled at the time…one of those rulers were the Moors…who happened to be Muslim.

Lisa

 

[TimOliv]

If I had a nickel for every reason you have given for “leaving” Catholicism I would be a rich man.

Then all day long you could biddy biddy bum…if you were a wealthy man…

 

[thechrismyster]

since reading drudge almost everyday since 9/11, i’ve learned 2 things… Global warming is in debate and muslims LOVE to burn things.
every picture of muslims in India or anywhere, there is a crowd burning something. it’s getting old.

 

[pro_universal]

If I had a nickel for every reason you have given for “leaving” Catholicism I would be a rich man

Huh?

This thread is the first time I have mentioned it on this forum. Period.

 

[jAlex]

Attitudes like these towards Muslims have helped convince me to leave Catholicism.

That’s sad and at the same time intriguing…
Does that mean that your salvation depends on somebodyelse’s opinion about somebodyelse’s religion? This really sound convoluted I heard many reasons but this one tops them all …

I’m sad when I read these threads. A quote from a medieval Byzantine Emperor about his rivals for power is being used to describe Islam again…it’s as if we’ve learned nothing from a violent, intolerant history.

Well, talking about tolerance, I have yet to see an outcry of such proportions next time Iran runs anti-West, anti-Jewis cartoons in their newspapers like they did not long ago. Nobody took up the streets in the West. We just treated them like someting immature, just like we did in the Danish cartoons fiasco. Now looking at how the muslims react… I do not know if I have to smile, cry, or bang my head against a wall :banghead:

Alex.

 

[tequilamac]

“Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

This was a quote used by Pope Benedict, you can read it all at www.zenit.org. It goes on to chastize Islam for it’s preoccupation with using violence, threats, and death to convert others. The Pope is not stupid. He knew what he was saying and how it would be received. He said it anyway. The Holy Father is a man of truth and courage. Viva il Papa!

I read the speech in it’s entirety. It was a lovely speech, explicitly portraying the unreasonableness of spreading faith through violence. There are always those who will take one sentence out of context and use it to promote violence. It cannot be helped. Any religion becomes an occasion for mass murder when the intention is power and control, not God. I can see how the jihaders will use this to attack further. But a reasonable person will observe what was said and go on about his business undisturbed. The fact that so many Muslims and others condemned the Pope for his speech simply shows that their hearts are in war not God.

 

[pro_universal]

Does that mean that your salvation depends on somebodyelse’s opinion about somebodyelse’s religion?

No, it doesn’t. But closed mindedness and bias that run deep through a community are powerful signs that that community does not possess the full truth, at least to me. When I find myself surrounded by people who are filled with anger towards Muslims and unwilling to take an honest look at their beliefs, I wonder.

I have yet to see an outcry of such proportions next time Iran runs anti-West, anti-Jewis cartoons in their newspapers like they did not long ago.

I have no idea how that could possibly mean anything that’s pertinent to this thread.

 

[thechrismyster]

defending Islam against charges that the above are true is definitely reasonable, because if you learn what Muslims have to say, it’s clear that those claims are false…

the words of love themself. can you translate for us? love and peace, for sure.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

in case you can’t read arabic, let me help…

"Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (Jews) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. "