The Pope's words on Islam

[Eden]

As a follow-up, I would encourage everyone to put posters who spread Muslim propaganda on this *Catholic *site on your ignore list. Continuing to engage them only encourages them to come back.

For anyone who wants a more solid understanding of the Muslim practice of “al-takeyya” or lying in Islam, you can go here: islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml. The Islam Review website is a useful site for learning about the tactics of lying and deception used by Muslims when engaging with non-believers.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

The Times (London’s, not New York’s or LA’s) hits the nail on the head in today’s lead editorial:

The Pope and the Prophet

Rationalists should be roused but Muslims reassured by the Pontiff’s words

(…).

The Pope did not endorse the sentiment. He made it clear that he was quoting from the historical record. And he went on to compare the Byzantine belief in reason with the Muslim teaching on God’s transcendence.

(…).

The Vatican insists that no offence was intended but those who are looking for offence will never be easily appeased. Already links are being made with supposed Western hostility to Islam. Like the Danish cartoons, the Pope’s words provide a golden opportunity for Islamist militants to inflame the millions who have no access to his full speech with a distorted interpretation of his words and his intentions.

(…).

Both Christianity and Islam aspire to the divine and they share a theology that is contemptuous of mindless materialism and crass consumerism. This Pope is not “relegating religion” and he is tweaking the tail of the rationalists, which provides no excuse, no justification, no cause for the spiritual to be irrational. Christianity and Islam have rarely sat easily together; but tolerance must not be deliberately destroyed by the intolerant.

Link: timesonline.co.uk/article/0,542-2360622,00.html

Be well!

ssv

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

This whole fracas reminds me of 1999’s David Howard incident in Washington DC (where I went to university back in the early 1980’s):

Niggardly is a word synonymous with stingy and miserly, and a niggard (noun) is a miser. They are both derived from the Old Norse verb nigla, meaning “to fuss about small matters”. (The English word “niggle” retains the original Norse meaning.) The word is not related to the word “n*gger” though someone unfamiliar with the word “niggardly” might take offense due to the phonetic similarity between the words.

David Howard incident

On January 15, 1999, David Howard, a white aide to Anthony A. Williams, the black mayor of Washington, D.C., United States, used the word in reference to a budget. This apparently upset one of his black colleagues (identified by Howard as Marshall Brown), who incorrectly interpreted it as a racial slur and lodged a complaint. As a result, on January 25 Williams forced Howard to resign.

However, after an internal review into the matter and pressure from the gay community (of which Howard was a member), the mayor offered Howard the chance to return to his position as Office of the Public Advocate on February 4. Howard refused but accepted another position with the mayor instead.

The Howard incident led to a national debate in the U.S., in the context of racial sensitivity and political correctness, on whether use of the word niggardly should be avoided because of its potential association with the extremely pejorative racial slur "ngger",* despite the entirely separate and unrelated etymologies of the two words (“n*gger” derives from niger, the Latin for “black”)…

Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niggardly

The Washington Post (washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm) noted:

NAACP Chairman Julian Bond, who in criticizing Williams last week said that people should not have to “censor” their language to meet other “people’s lack of understanding,” praised Howard’s reinstatement.

Scholars (such as the Pope) and educated people should not have to to kowtow to the ignorant, the immature and the uneducated and, in effect, give the latter a veto!

Be well!

ssv

 

[Tmaque]

jAlex,

That was a long and energetic post, but I’m going to try and take the main point here:

You’re saying that, regardless of what I say about the teachings of Islam, the actions of the followers prove that the religion commands killing, right?

If that’s the case, we can safely conclude that Christianity commands killing. There are Christians all over the world disobeying their religion right now and killing people. Latin America is a prime example, Africa is another, and Eric Rudolph is another right here in the USA.

This is very strange. You recognize that Christians kill people even though their religion forbids it; yet when Muslims kill people, you absolutely refuse to allow for the possibility that these “Muslims” disobey their religion.

Citing an article about some people in Pakistan who commit murder does not prove that Islam commanded them to do it. It doesn’t even prove that they think Islam commanded them to do it.

Do you have something besides behavior to prove your point here? If you don’t, then you have to condemn every religion…because every religion has people who will kill, regardless of what texts you show them from the books they claim to follow.

I can’t believe I have to state something so obvious. Muslims are killing people in the NAME of Islam. They see the killings as their DUTY to Islam. You can put lipstick on this pig all day long but it’s still a pig. All one has to do to know that Islam is aggressive and violent is watch the damn news! Islam is intolerant and oppressive to other religions…period. It always has been. Please tell me how many countries that are over 50% muslim allow christian missionaries in. The answer is none.

 

[Adonia]

Attitudes like these towards Muslims have helped convince me to leave Catholicism.

I’m sad when I read these threads. A quote from a medieval Byzantine Emperor about his rivals for power is being used to describe Islam again…it’s as if we’ve learned nothing from a violent, intolerant history.

Thank you, Cestusdei, for being one of many who has helped me to see that Catholicism is not the path to truth that I need to follow.

OK. So you left the Catholic Church. Remember one thing my friend, Muslims claim Muhammad as a prophet, Catholics (Christians) belive Christ is God himself come to earth. Your choice!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The Mussulman:

There are so many posts blasting Islam on this point I couldn’t possibly respond to every one. Look around for a second before you accue me of “making a strawman.” Look at Rodrigo’s posts first, for a good example.

Whatever do you mean? Didn’t Muhammad make up 9:29? Don’t Muhammadans like yourself follow the Quran?

Here are some more evidence that Muhammadans persecute Christians for the sole reason of their belief.

Dr Muhsin Khan:
“Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon “the fighting” against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first “the fighting” was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory.”

(Hujjat al-Islam) Abu Hamid Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Ghazali:
“After the death of Mohammad, the man of the miracle [the Qur’an] and the apostle of truth and the companions, fearing the weakening of Islam, the decrease of the number of its followers, and the return of masses to their previous infidelity, saw that holy war and invading other countries for the sake of Allah, smashing the faces of the infidels with the sword and making people enter the religion of Allah as the most worthy of all tasks and better than all sciences.”

Al-Shawkani:
“Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jizya tax (protection money for the Jews and the Christians only) or being killed. The verse about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case”.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, for, otherwise, they would have believed in the Prophet (s), and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, such as wine, nor do they practise the religion of truth, the firm one, the one that abrogated other religions, namely, the religion of Islam - from among of those who (min, ‘from’, explains [the previous] alladhīna, ‘those who’) have been given the Scripture, namely, the Jews and the Christians, until they pay the jizya tribute, the annual tax imposed them, readily ('an yadin is a circumstantial qualifier, meaning, ‘compliantly’, or ‘by their own hands’, not delegating it [to others to pay]), being subdued, [being made] submissive and compliant to the authority of Islam.

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture) the Jews and Christians (as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day) nor in the bliss of Paradise, (and forbid not) in the Torah (that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth) do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah’s divine Oneness, (until they pay the tribute readily) standing: from hand to hand, (being brought low) abased.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

This honorable ayah (passage) was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslim’s control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination….

Allah said, “until they pay the Jizyah,” if they do not choose to embrace Islam, “with willing submission”, in defeat and subservience, “and feel themselves subdued,” disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

Yet again the second caliph, Umar al-Khattab, applied 9:29 to subjugate and humiliate the Christians of Ash-Shams long after Muhammad died.

…the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

Straw man indeed.

 

[pro_universal]

OK. So you left the Catholic Church. Remember one thing my friend, Muslims claim Muhammad as a prophet, Catholics (Christians) belive Christ is God himself come to earth. Your choice!

Well, just to make clear again…I’m not Muslim (though I certainly find it attractive).

I still respect and admire the Church, but I think these recent comments on Islam are unfortunate, and I find especially troubling the anger towards Islam that I see tolerated in the community.

 

[Adonia]

Well, just to make clear again…I’m not Muslim (though I certainly find it attractive).

I still respect and admire the Church, but I think these recent comments on Islam are unfortunate, and I find especially troubling the anger towards Islam that I see tolerated in the community.

Unfortunate? Yes. But only in the context that we have a truly intellectual Pope whose words were ment to appeal to the mind, not emotion. It seems that too many Muslims are on the raw level of religious belief, and they cannot understand what the Pope meant. The anger that you see towards Islam is because of the violence by many adherants of that faith and the mostly complete lack of condemnation by the moderates of that religion. Of course, that’s understandable. Most people want to live and if you cross those radicals in the Muslim faith you end up with your head cut off!

 

[pro_universal]

Unfortunate? Yes. But only in the context that we have a truly intellectual Pope whose words were ment to appeal to the mind, not emotion. It seems that too many Muslims are on the raw level of religious belief, and they cannot understand what the Pope meant. The anger that you see towards Islam is because of the violence by many adherants of that faith and the mostly complete lack of condemnation by the moderates of that religion. Of course, that’s understandable. Most people want to live and if you cross those radicals in the Muslim faith you end up with your head cut off!

Well, the fact is, the Pope chose to quote an insulting passage to Muslims. As far as I can tell, he has not rejected the quote, or said he believes it to be false. He didn’t do this when he spoke it either.

As for a lack of condemnation by moderates, I would like for you to find me one moderate leader in Islam who has not condemned terrorism. Just one. This claim keeps getting repeated, but it is blatantly false…virtually every single Muslim group on the planet has condemned this sort of violence.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Pope apologized…

Pope sorry for reaction to his remarks

“These (words) were in fact a quotation from a Medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought,” Benedict told pilgrims at his summer palace outside Rome.

The pope sparked the controversy when, in a speech Tuesday to university professors during a pilgrimage to his native Germany, he cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, Islam’s founder, as “evil and inhuman.”

“At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims,” the pope said Sunday.

I hope he didn’t apologize but he did. He surprises me, and makes me proud.

 

[Riley259]

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214128,00.html
They don’t like what the Pope said.
So they firebomb **Anglican and Orthodox **churches.
I’ll bet it made sense to them.

Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." Surah 5:51

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them.” Surah 9:121

They want us converted to Islam or dead.

And for those who didn’t notice Christ does not instruct us to kill those who do not convert (although we have sadly done so).

Mohammed does instruct his followers to kill those who are infidels. and Infidels are…"they who say "Verily God is the Messiah the son of Ibn Maryam ( son of Mary)…from Surah V

Those are clear-cut examples of how dangerous Islam can be.

 

[Riley259]

Whatever do you mean? Didn’t Muhammad make up 9:29? Don’t Muhammadans like yourself follow the Quran?

Here are some more evidence that Muhammadans persecute Christians for the sole reason of their belief.

Dr Muhsin Khan:
“Allah revealed in Sura Bara’at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon “the fighting” against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first “the fighting” was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory.”

(Hujjat al-Islam) Abu Hamid Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Ghazali:
“After the death of Mohammad, the man of the miracle [the Qur’an] and the apostle of truth and the companions, fearing the weakening of Islam, the decrease of the number of its followers, and the return of masses to their previous infidelity, saw that holy war and invading other countries for the sake of Allah, smashing the faces of the infidels with the sword and making people enter the religion of Allah as the most worthy of all tasks and better than all sciences.”

Al-Shawkani:
“Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jizya tax (protection money for the Jews and the Christians only) or being killed. The verse about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case”.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, for, otherwise, they would have believed in the Prophet (s), and who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, such as wine, nor do they practise the religion of truth, the firm one, the one that abrogated other religions, namely, the religion of Islam - from among of those who (min, ‘from’, explains [the previous] alladhīna, ‘those who’) have been given the Scripture, namely, the Jews and the Christians, until they pay the jizya tribute, the annual tax imposed them, readily ('an yadin is a circumstantial qualifier, meaning, ‘compliantly’, or ‘by their own hands’, not delegating it [to others to pay]), being subdued, [being made] submissive and compliant to the authority of Islam.

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
(Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture) the Jews and Christians (as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day) nor in the bliss of Paradise, (and forbid not) in the Torah (that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth) do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah’s divine Oneness, (until they pay the tribute readily) standing: from hand to hand, (being brought low) abased.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

This honorable ayah (passage) was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslim’s control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination….

Allah said, “until they pay the Jizyah,” if they do not choose to embrace Islam, “with willing submission”, in defeat and subservience, “and feel themselves subdued,” disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

Yet again the second caliph, Umar al-Khattab, applied 9:29 to subjugate and humiliate the Christians of Ash-Shams long after Muhammad died.

…the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

Straw man indeed.

More evidence about the unreasonableness and dangerousness of Islam.

 

[pro_universal]

More evidence about the unreasonableness and dangerousness of Islam.

This comment, even with the material quoted above, says more about you than it does about Islam.

 

[Image_of_God]

This comment, even with the material quoted above, says more about you than it does about Islam.

It is clear that Islam does not in fact except Jesus as the Son of God and calls those who believe this are infidels. But I still agree with you that not all Muslims should be attacked. Actually NO Muslims should be attacked.

But I still have my stronghead disagreements against Islam and their teachings about Judaism and Christianity.
However there are good and kind Muslims and I don’t think these are who people who attacking. I think it is the nature of what Islam teaches that should be done to Christians and Jews(or unbelievers).

I don’t think the people are attacking good Muslims at all. I think they are stating that Islam by its nature teaches to kill unbelievers and I’m glad that not all Muslims follow such an unjustifyable teaching. God would never teach such a horrible teaching as to go out and kill his creation by not giving them a chance to repent.

I do not hate Islam of the Muslims for that matter. But rather what the Quaran teaches is debatable. Of course Muslims believe in this same God as Jews and Christians. But a distinction has to be made because one God could only mean that God teaches one thing. Either we go with Jewish and Christian God, that God has not only a side of justice, but also a side of mercy in which he loves all creation and wishes none to perish, or the Quaran(not all Muslims) teaching of what God says to do, which is to go out and kill his creation that does not believe.

Jesus was patient with the people even though they did not believe in him. He died so that the Holy Spirit would help them understand how to believe in him. He never said to kill infidels because he made it clear that everyone was full of infidelity at one point and that no one was ever born with fidelity.

When the religious leaders tried to stone a women because she commited adultery. He said, “Whoever has not sinned throw the first stone.” Jesus show that violence of any kind, except for the defense of the innocent, cannot in any manner come from love or concur with it. For as Paul says it:

1 Cor. 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice in wrongdoing , but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I am not exactly against Islam, but I have a hard time believing that God teached that we should kill those of his creation that do not believe. Since “God is love.”

 

[pro_universal]

It is clear that Islam does not in fact except Jesus as the Son of God and calls those who believe this are infidels.

FYI, the word “infidel” has no roots in Arabic whatsoever. It’s our word, and we invented it. Muslims have different words for polytheists versus Christians and Jews.

But I still agree with you that not all Muslims should be attacked. Actually NO Muslims should be attacked.

But I still have my stronghead disagreements against Islam and their teachings about Judaism and Christianity.
However there are good and kind Muslims and I don’t think these are who people who attacking. I think it is the nature of what Islam teaches that should be done to Christians and Jews(or unbelievers).

I don’t think the people are attacking good Muslims at all. I think they are stating that Islam by its nature teaches to kill unbelievers and I’m glad that not all Muslims follow such an unjustifyable teaching. God would never teach such a horrible teaching as to go out and kill his creation and not giving them a chance to repent.

We are in agreement here. We should not go kill people for their beliefs.

 

[Image_of_God]

FYI, the word “infidel” has no roots in Arabic whatsoever. It’s our word, and we invented it. Muslims have different words for polytheists versus Christians and Jews.

The point is that there is probably a word in Arabic that means a similar thing. However we did not invent whatever word it replaced. The Quaran clearly says that anybody who believes that Mary’s son is God is an unbeliever. Infidel and Unbeliever have a similar meaning.

We are in agreement here. We should not go kill people for their beliefs.

But this is what the Quaran teaches them to do. I am glad that not all Muslims do such a thing. However it is hard to support such a radical belief. The Quaran is the center of Islam.

 

[pro_universal]

The point is that there is probably a word in Arabic that means a similar thing. However we did not invent whatever word it replaced. The Quaran clearly says that anybody who believes that Mary’s son is God is an unbeliever. Infidel and Unbeliever have a similar meaning.

How exactly did you conclude the meaning of the Arabic terms based on english terms??? Is this possible? I don’t think it is.

But this is what the Quaran teaches them to do. I am glad that not all Muslims do such a thing. However it is hard to support such a radical belief. The Quaran is the center of Islam.

Strangely, for supposedly being commanded to do this, you will not find a single Muslim who claims that Islam commands kill or convert.

 

[meedo]

FYI, the word “infidel” has no roots in Arabic whatsoever. It’s our word, and we invented it. Muslims have different words for polytheists versus Christians and Jews.
.

Actually thats true. Its very interesting when i hear christians claim that we claim that they are infidel.

In Islam we have

Unbeliver = Kaffir ( One who proclaims he isnt a muslim. It is not an insult. if you call a muslim a Kaffir of jesus the son of God then he wouldnt mind. because he doesnt believe in it)

Hypocrite = Munafiq ( One who says he is muslim but he is not one)

Associater = Mushrik ( One who worship the God of Moses + other Gods)

Pagan= Wathanee ( one who worship any God other than the God of Moses)

probably terrorists got the Infedil word from movies. But it certainly has no meaning in arabic.

thanks

 

[Image_of_God]

How exactly did you conclude the meaning of the Arabic terms based on english terms??? Is this possible? I don’t think it is.[QOUTE]
You still misunderstood. Even if infidel is not Arabic, it would still be unlawful to put a word that is completely different form what the what the orignal Arabic meant.

Strangely, for supposedly being commanded to do this, you will not find a single Muslim who claims that Islam commands kill or convert.

You will not meet a single KIND Muslims who makes such claims. But just look at the recent times. The surrounding Muslims-excluding the good ones-have had trouble with the Jews, because they are Jewish. It is not SUPPOSEDLY claimed. It says, to KILL the unbeliever in the Quran. As Meedo put it, an unbeliever is someone who claims they are not Muslim. Similarly, one who claims to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, claims he is not Muslim and is to be killed as it is in the Quran. I supposedly disagree with this it does not mean I HATE Islam.

 

[meedo]

The point is that there is probably a word in Arabic that means a similar thing. However we did not invent whatever word it replaced. The Quaran clearly says that anybody who believes that Mary’s son is God is an unbeliever. Infidel and Unbeliever have a similar meaning.

But this is what the Quaran teaches them to do. I am glad that not all Muslims do such a thing. However it is hard to support such a radical belief. The Quaran is the center of Islam.

I dont think they are that similar. Somehow this Infidel word seem derogatory. While unbeliever isnt.

So i can comfortably call myself a kaffir or unbeliever of the Christian doctrine. I am not insulting myself.

As for the command to kill unbelievers , you have to take things into context. We just dont go around killing whoever isnt muslim. or else ther ewouldnt be 10 million christians in my country .

Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the whole wide world and no muslim sword has ever been carried there.

I am sad that people just believe what they hear and thats it.

Thanks for bieng mroe understanding than someothers any way .

salam