The Pope's words on Islam

[Mickey]

For example: “Hundreds of children have been savagely raped by Catholic Priests.”

I was waiting for someone to slip that one in.

It’s a true statement. No one can doubt it. But if a major political figure used it in a speech on victim counseling would you be offended?

Where have you been? It is used all the time to calumniate the Church. There are thousands of these types of sexual abuse cases in all facets of society (yes, even secular and protestant circles). But do the Catholics begin to burn down buildings and murder people. Nope.

 

[sadie2723]

sadie,

Okay, we’re clear that you think Islam is bad.

Fine.

The point is, you know Muslims certainly don’t think it’s bad. So what’s so shocking to you that they are offended by people calling it evil?

Even true statements can be offensive. So while I’m not going to convince you that you are wrong about Islam, I think we can agree true statements can still be incredibly offensive.

For example: “Hundreds of children have been savagely raped by Catholic Priests.”

It’s a true statement. No one can doubt it. But if a major political figure used it in a speech on victim counseling would you be offended?

Ok, I see your point on that one in that I do get what you are saying…I do disagree with the numbers of people involved in child molestation via Catholic priests…but that is another thread.

The point that I am trying to make is that I do not see in the Koran where it calls for peace or anything like peace. But it does call for violence…a lot. So, the Pope calling that to the attention of the world should be nothing to get too excited about. Why are they mad…because he exposed the dirty little secret?

And, how does a guy making a statement justify people shooting nuns in the back like cowards and burning churches? Also, where is the outrage by the muslims who are “all about peace” at the actions of the fanatics? I do not see it on the news. I do not see it in the street. All I see is a lot of muslims supporting the actions of the “fanatics”. I wonder why that is?

 

[pro_universal]

I was waiting for someone to slip that one in.
Where have you been? It is used all the time to calumniate the Church. There are thousands of these types of sexual abuse cases in all facets of society (yes, even secular and protestant circles). But do the Catholics begin to burn down buildings and murder people. Nope.

Okay, I didn’t say “no one else is a molestor” or any such thing.

There’s an example of a statement that is undeniably true, yet offensive. I hope you would be offended by it if someone said it. I certainly would find it offensive to Catholicism.

So maybe I could just get you to answer the question:

Is the true statement “hundreds of children have been savagely raped by Priests” offensive? If so, why? I mean, aren’t you implying that no true statement can be offensive?

 

[pro_universal]

And, how does a guy making a statement justify people shooting nuns in the back like cowards and burning churches? Also, where is the outrage by the muslims who are “all about peace” at the actions of the fanatics? I do not see it on the news. I do not see it in the street. All I see is a lot of muslims supporting the actions of the “fanatics”. I wonder why that is?

It doesn’t justify it. Shootings and violence over this are grossly immoral, period.

The reason all you see are fanatics is this:

“10 Muslims burn effigy of the Pope” is a headline.

“500 million Muslims stay home and cook dinner” is not a headline. It’s very simple.

 

[Mickey]

So maybe I could just get you to answer the question:

Is the true statement “hundreds of children have been savagely raped by Priests” offensive? If so, why? I mean, aren’t you implying that no true statement can be offensive?

I will answer the question.

No, it is not offensive to me. It saddens me. These priests were ordained as servants of God. They broke their vows and were seduced by the power of Satan. They let the passions drag them into the pit of sin. They must repent with a contrite heart.

Now for an analogy. If you tell me that the Catholic Church is evil because of the behavior of some of It’s priests, and I kill you for it, and burn down your house, am I justified?

 

[sadie2723]

It doesn’t justify it. Shootings and violence over this are grossly immoral, period.

The reason all you see are fanatics is this:

“10 Muslims burn effigy of the Pope” is a headline.

“500 million Muslims stay home and cook dinner” is not a headline. It’s very simple.

I agree with that point. What I do not see or hear is any kind of outrage from the 500 million muslim dinner cookers or those that lead muslim countries. Nobody in the muslim community is doing anything to stop the violence at all. I wonder why that is? Could it be because the book that they base their faith on tells them that violence it the way of Allah?

I mean, if thousands of Catholics hit the street today in my town and started shooting muslims in the back for fun or burning down the masques, you can bet that I would be out there in force putting a stop to it. Not only that, but the Catholic leadership and the Christian leadership of the world would be all over the press condemning the actions of those involved and then putting a stop to it by force if it came to that.

Islam does not do this? Why? Because the Koran is very clear in its teaching.

 

[Mickey]

I agree with that point. What I do not see or hear is any kind of outrage from the 500 million muslim dinner cookers or those that lead muslim countries. Nobody in the muslim community is doing anything to stop the violence at all. I wonder why that is?

This is a mystery to me also.

 

[kepha444]

A few months ago, I watched an interview on CNN by a Muslim woman who escaped Iraq and now lives in the U.S. She was asked about the so called “peaceful moderate Muslims”. She said that at one time, the extremists were a small minority but over the last ten years they have become about 70%. I do not know how much truth there is to this–but it is frightening nonetheless.

Thats just like, remember 9-11i was driving school bus at the time…there was women all over the place,watching tv ,of course,anyway,one thing that struck me,after watching the tv myself, was that not ONE of the muslims would condemn what was being shown,not one of then…so i say GO POPE BENIDICT!!!

 

[cestusdei]

Child abuse eh? Of course Muslims will bring it up. Well our founder didn’t marry a 9 year old girl. If you want evidence of abuse in the Islamic world then start a thread and we can give massive numbers of examples.

You will notice however that by saying that and even when the press became very bigoted on the issue WE did not riot or kill anyone.

 

[tequilamac]

sadie,

Okay, we’re clear that you think Islam is bad.

Fine.

The point is, you know Muslims certainly don’t think it’s bad. So what’s so shocking to you that they are offended by people calling it evil?

Even true statements can be offensive. So while I’m not going to convince you that you are wrong about Islam, I think we can agree true statements can still be incredibly offensive.

For example: “Hundreds of children have been savagely raped by Catholic Priests.”

It’s a true statement. No one can doubt it. But if a major political figure used it in a speech on victim counseling would you be offended?

I rather doubt I would be offended as they spoke the truth. But more to the point, even though attacks on the Church as a whole have been all over the media due to the abuse, I have not yet seen any Catholic burning presidents, reporters or lawyers in effigy nor have they threatened to assassinate them. But perhaps that is because Catholicism at it’s core is peaceful, where one really has to search the Koran and argue tediously to find anythign remotely resembling peace in Islam. Our peace is out there for the world to see- Islam’s is apparently so hidden no one on this forum including you pro universal can find it for a fact.

 

[Eden]

Child abuse eh?

Yeah, really. How ironic was that one. I think we all know the story already:

"Narrated Aisha that the prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine** years old."Vol. 7:64

The Quran goes on to say that this child brought her dolls with her when she moved from her parents’ house to her new “husband’s” house.

But the child abuse continues in Islam. It is CHILD ABUSE to teach innocent children that they should desire to die a martyr’s death and to encourage them to engage in death games:

**Part I:**The Indoctrination of Children to Seek Death
a. Short Propaganda Films for Children
b. Schools and Textbooks
c. Culture
d. Political Leadership
e. Parents and the Palestinian Public
f. Religious Leadership
**Part II: **Results of the PA Shahada Indoctrination
a. Ages 6-9: Playing Death Games
b. Ages 10-13: Expressing Desire to Die
c. Ages 14-17: Shahada Missions

pmw.org.il/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm

 

[Mickey]

**Part I:**The Indoctrination of Children to Seek Death
a. Short Propaganda Films for Children

b. Schools and Textbooks

c. Culture

d. Political Leadership

e. Parents and the Palestinian Public

f. Religious Leadership

Part II: ****Results of the PA Shahada Indoctrinationa. Ages 6-9: Playing Death Games

b. Ages 10-13: Expressing Desire to Die

c. Ages 14-17: Shahada Missions

How terribly sad.

 

[cestusdei]

The 3 R’s: Rioting, Rock throwing, and Revolting.

 

[exoflare]

Child abuse eh? Of course Muslims will bring it up. Well our founder didn’t marry a 9 year old girl. If you want evidence of abuse in the Islamic world then start a thread and we can give massive numbers of examples.

You will notice however that by saying that and even when the press became very bigoted on the issue WE did not riot or kill anyone.

Aisha was 6 when the profit married her.

She was actually 9 when the marriage was, er… “consumated”.

 

[Image_of_God]

Do not let these unkindnesses shake our faith. We have a duty to love even those who hurt us. I think it is an attempt to make us unlike Jesus, and with the post that we are posting, they are winning. We should not post nasty things about other people no matter how nasty they appear to be, for Christ has died for those people. We should not take justice into our own hands, even if it is not in the form of actual violence.

I still believe that the Pope was NOT wrong in his comments, because he was simply questioning the Islamic faith. However, we need to really do our part. The Pope has done his part by speaking the truth. We need to show the world what true Christianity is like, by proving the Pope more true about the faith he defended, Christianity, but also for the sake of defending God.
Each of our uncharitable posts, regardless of the unkindness of the radicals, will be counted against us if we do not repent. For we should not think as as mere creatures, like a mudslinging compition, but rather as children of God, knowing we were raised by Christ.

So now I tell you do not judge the religion of Islam at all. Rather let God judge it, just as JPII told us(well at least in a similat fashion). We should not judge people as we have in past post. I mean, it is okay to that the radical actions of some of these people are wrong, but we are even going so far as to name call. Watch out, Satan will tempt anything and anyone!

So let me recite this which I have recited before, because it tells how we are supposed to be, regardless of what happens:

1 Cor. 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

SO my question is, are we being patient with this trial in which the radicals mock us?
Are we being kind to the radicals and those who agree with them, even though, they hate us and our religion?
Are we getting irritated and resentful of what they are doing, knowing that God has told us not to?
Are we bearing this charitably, while hoping in Jesus?

Well while reading this, remember, that there if we do NOT follow this, we have no charity, and no charity, no Beatific Vision. Being in a Christian Faith is not enough, we have to be Christian and be Christian in our heart.

I have cut and pasted this comment from another post I typed, because I think it is something we all need to see.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Have any of you actually read Benedict’s speech that has suddenly been made so highly controversial? The day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief in a God not bound by anything including his own words. Benedict further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular humanists who see reason as being completely unbound of God.

In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened genius. (You really have to read the whole speech to appreciate his genius so I have attached it see below) He has clearly laid out the differences between Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the clash of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance between the western Left and the Islamist Right.

Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech. Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor Manuel II: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II’s 600-year-old point. The reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to force our Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need not be internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it’s only objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is created in God’s image then by extension Islamic man is not bound by anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of some Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any “offense” to their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only morality they have the will to power.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf

This was an excellent post!

 

[sadie2723]

Do not let these unkindnesses shake our faith. We have a duty to love even those who hurt us. I think it is an attempt to make us unlike Jesus, and with the post that we are posting, they are winning. We should not post nasty things about other people no matter how nasty they appear to be, for Christ has died for those people. We should not take justice into our own hands, even if it is not in the form of actual violence.

I still believe that the Pope was NOT wrong in his comments, because he was simply questioning the Islamic faith. However, we need to really do our part. The Pope has done his part by speaking the truth. We need to show the world what true Christianity is like, by proving the Pope more true about the faith he defended, Christianity, but also for the sake of defending God.
Each of our uncharitable posts, regardless of the unkindness of the radicals, will be counted against us if we do not repent. For we should not think as as mere creatures, like a mudslinging compition, but rather as children of God, knowing we were raised by Christ.

So now I tell you do not judge the religion of Islam at all. Rather let God judge it, just as JPII told us(well at least in a similat fashion). We should not judge people as we have in past post. I mean, it is okay to that the radical actions of some of these people are wrong, but we are even going so far as to name call. Watch out, Satan will tempt anything and anyone!

So let me recite this which I have recited before, because it tells how we are supposed to be, regardless of what happens:

1 Cor. 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

SO my question is, are we being patient with this trial in which the radicals mock us?
Are we being kind to the radicals and those who agree with them, even though, they hate us and our religion?
Are we getting irritated and resentful of what they are doing, knowing that God has told us not to?
Are we bearing this charitably, while hoping in Jesus?

Well while reading this, remember, that there if we do NOT follow this, we have no charity, and no charity, no Beatific Vision. Being in a Christian Faith is not enough, we have to be Christian and be Christian in our heart.

I have cut and pasted this comment from another post I typed, because I think it is something we all need to see.

I hear you, but I also say this…there is a time for the shepherd to tend his flock…and there is a time for the shepherd to fend off the wolves.

There may come a time that we all have to ask ourselves what we believe…and what we will put up with in this world. If that time comes, we may just have to fend off a wolf or two.

It is deplorable to lie. The Bible tells us this, and I believe it. The people of Islam have been, and continue to, lie to us all. They continue to state that theirs is some “Religion of Peace” when their own scripture does not state this message. They attack Christians in ever part of the world. They shoot us in the back like cowards. They burn our churches in the name of Allah. They refuse to make peace.

Further, when faced with people in their streets that are proclaiming terror, they do nothing to stop it. They do not even verbally disagree with it…ever.

The Islamic people have lied to us about their “Religion of Peace”. As I and others have shown time and again, theirs is a Religion of Violence and hate, and that hate is mandated in their scripture. No muslim on this forum has argued the scripture of their Koran, as it is true and in black and white. They have lied, and there is nothing sinful in calling them on that lie.

 

[Image_of_God]

I hear you, but I also say this…there is a time for the shepherd to tend his flock…and there is a time for the shepherd to fend off the wolves.

There may come a time that we all have to ask ourselves what we believe…and what we will put up with in this world. If that time comes, we may just have to fend off a wolf or two.

It is deplorable to lie. The Bible tells us this, and I believe it. The people of Islam have been, and continue to, lie to us all. They continue to state that theirs is some “Religion of Peace” when their own scripture does not state this message. They attack Christians in ever part of the world. They shoot us in the back like cowards. They burn our churches in the name of Allah. They refuse to make peace.

Further, when faced with people in their streets that are proclaiming terror, they do nothing to stop it. They do not even verbally disagree with it…ever.

The Islamic people have lied to us about their “Religion of Peace”. As I and others have shown time and again, theirs is a Religion of Violence and hate, and that hate is mandated in their scripture. No muslim on this forum has argued the scripture of their Koran, as it is true and in black and white. They have lied, and there is nothing sinful in calling them on that lie.

Yes, but is it okay for you to take this into your hands? Do you know the intention of every man’s heart? No one can no this, but God and that person.
The passage clearly shows not to become irritated by peoples actions, and yes even I fail at this ALOT, but, even if they lied, we are still required as Christians to forgive, 77x7 times a day. We are not even supposed to, as Christians, to stoop down to the level of the radicals. They “no not what they do.” For if they did, they would know that what they did to the nun, they have done to whom they call a “prophet”, but whom we call the Son of God.

The Pope was merely questioning their faith. For whatever Churches they burn, whatever people they have hurt, they hurt Christ. And if they do not repent of their bloodshed, God will be very unhappy.

 

[sadie2723]

Yes, but is it okay for you to take this into your hands? Do you know the intention of every man’s heart? No one can no this, but God and that person.
The passage clearly shows not to become irritated by peoples actions, and yes even I fail at this ALOT, but, even if they lied, we are still required as Christians to forgive, 77x7 times a day. We are not even supposed to, as Christians, to stoop down to the level of the radicals. They “no not what they do.” For if they did, they would know that what they did to the nun, they have done to whom they call a “prophet”, but whom we call the Son of God.

The Pope was merely questioning their faith. For whatever Churches they burn, whatever people they have hurt, they hurt Christ. And if they do not repent of their bloodshed, God will be very unhappy.

You are right. We are required to forgive. And, I have no problem with that. I just want one of the offenders to say that they are sorry. So far, nobody on that end of things has asked to be forgiven, and thus we are not required to forgive their lies.

 

[Image_of_God]

You are right. We are required to forgive. And, I have no problem with that. I just want one of the offenders to say that they are sorry. So far, nobody on that end of things has asked to be forgiven, and thus we are not required to forgive their lies.

We are to be “perfect just as [Our] Father in Heaven is perfect.” Therefore, just as he forgave us before we asked, so we forgive before people ask.