The Pope's words on Islam

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tequilamac said:
Oh, spew, Pro. Give us a break. Do not try to paint the Muslims into a holocaust scene. More like the Nazis instead of the Jews, pro, from where we are sitting.

The point of fact is the Catholic Church is not waging war on Islam. Yet Islam is issuing fatwas against the Pope and burning the Pope in effigy. These are facts Pro. You cannot deny them. Is all of Islam burning the Pope in effigy? No. But that does not deny that Muslims view themselves as terribly insulted by about the only christian friend they have. Irrational. And their behavior and outrage is simply not defensible, pro. It isn’t. Even poor old John Paul II outraged and alienated many, many Catholics with his attempts at friendship with Islam. Islamic hatred of the Pope is simply not defensible. I repeat, even within his own church, Pope Benedict is Islam’s best non muslim friend. So either Muslims as a whole have built in violence in their religion and theology or they are just plain stupid. I do not believe they are stupid- so please explain why they would act so stupidly as to attack their best friend? It would seem that if Islam truly wanted to live in peace with the rest of the world, the Pope would be the very last person they would attack, now wouldn’t it?
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How many Muslims condemned Pope John Paul II?

None. The comment was offensive, that’s why Muslims are offended. If you can’t see why saying “Muhammad only brought evil”, and then not disagreeing with the statement, is offensive, I don’t know how I can possibly explain that to you.

The Pope is clearly not the best friend of Muslims. He’s no John Paul II, that’s for sure…there’s a leader the likes of whom the world may never see again.

And even then, both of these Popes clearly failed to convince you personally that Muslims are to be respected and loved. So clearly, the issue isn’t the attacks on the Popes…if you reallly took the Pope seriously, you wouldn’t be on here attacking Islam every week.
 
pro_universal said:
People once said the same thing about Jews…“look, they do all this bank planning in secret you see!”…

Some things will never change, I guess.
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You mean like the Qur’an?

“O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,” (Sura 9:34) [Pickthal]
 
prayforwisdom said:
You mean like the Qur’an?

“O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,” (Sura 9:34) [Pickthal]
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Is that seriously a verse you take issue with?

Many throughout history have done just that. It’s actually true. (Note that many does not mean All.)
 
pro_universal said:
How many Muslims condemned Pope John Paul II?

None. The comment was offensive, that’s why Muslims are offended. If you can’t see why saying “Muhammad only brought evil”, and then not disagreeing with the statement, is offensive, I don’t know how I can possibly explain that to you.

The Pope is clearly not the best friend of Muslims. He’s no John Paul II, that’s for sure…there’s a leader the likes of whom the world may never see again.

And even then, both of these Popes clearly failed to convince you personally that Muslims are to be respected and loved. So clearly, the issue isn’t the attacks on the Popes…if you reallly took the Pope seriously, you wouldn’t be on here attacking Islam every week.
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I have never been on here before a week ago or maybe two weeks ago, dear. I usually ignore discussions on Islam just as I ignore discussions on Judaism.

I do not need to be convinced that Muslims are to be respected and loved. I have never called for an injury to a Muslim, have never been insulted personally by a Muslim before now, have never wanted the death of a muslim. How am I attacking Muslims? What I am doing is dealing with reality which clearly you are not. Reality being that Muslims either deliberately or not, were insulted for absolutely no reason by the Pope and throughout the world calls for his death, execution, condemnation went out. Now how am I failing to love the muslims? Explain please how Islam can hate, kill maim and torture and yet, when I mildly suggest it is wrong, I am failing to love and respect Muslims? Do you see? This is the usual response from Muslims. One points out that Muslims can be violent and presto, chango, one is the accuser and attacker. Which is why, pro, so many people believe on this forum that you yourself are muslim. And keep calling you one.
A muslim burns the pope in effigy, we object and suddenly we are the unjust aggressors. It is ludicrous. If we saw it in a Leslie Nielson movie, we would be LOAO but not in real life. This type of psychotic twist to reality is just not funny. And it is psychotic. The American Psychiatric Association has a term for it- projection. That of attributing to others which you yourself are doing. A strong symptom of extreme paranoid psychosis. So- Muslims attack us- we are the unjust aggressors. They bomb the WTC- we are the unjust aggressors. They blow up train stations- we are the unjust aggressors. They threaten to kill the Pope- we are the unjust aggressors. Psychotic, completely.
 
Grace and Peace be with you all,

Any good Muslim website for news on this meeting between the Pope and Muslims?

Thanks and God Bless.
 
pro_universal said:
I see…so now it’s a billion man secret conspiracy we’re dealing with.

People once said the same thing about Jews…“look, they do all this bank planning in secret you see!”…

Some things will never change, I guess.
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You crack me up. I love our little debate. Who the heck said anything about a consipriacy there Oliver Stone. The point is that the leaders of Islam refuse to live this “peace and love” thing that they preach. If you have any qestions on that, look at who is in their prisions…thats right…Christians who were guilty of teaching something other than Islam.

So Pro, the deal is, you know the way that your Muslim friends are treating Christians around the world, and you know that contradicts what you are posting here and what they are saying to the press. If you want more examples of Muslim cruelty toward Christians, I will be happy to post you a few thousand examples. The point is this, it matters not what you say, it is what you do that counts, and the muslims you are defending persecute Christians.
 
It isn’t a conspiracy. They are not hiding it. They proudly say that the “green flag of Islam will fly from the Vatican and we will hang the Pope.” Yet, I hear no apologies or fatwas condemning such words. It is not a conspiracy. It is a jihad, against us.
 
estesbob said:
We talking about Bill Clinton here?🙂
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Kinda like Bill meets John Kerry:
**
“I was for terrorism before I was against it, before I was for it. But hey, I am against it now. Still, if it happens, I am not going to do anything about it. And, I did give some money to help fund it, but really I am against it.”**

Now that is not confusing is it?
 
pro_universal said:
Please name one major Islamic leader who has not condemned terrorism.

You’re claiming “clerics throughout the world call for our blood.” Yet I can’t find a single Islamic spiritual leader who does not condemn terrorism besides Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

So please, find an Islamic spiritual leader besides Al Qaeda itself that does not condemn terrorism.
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… that shows how little you know about the muslim world, or how little you want to know.

HARDLINE cleric linked to Somalia’s powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to “hunt down” and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.

Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin urged Muslims to find the pontiff and punish him for insulting the Prophet Mohammed and Allah in a speech that he said was as offensive as author Salman Rushdie’s novel The Satanic Verses.

“We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion,” he said in Friday evening prayers.

“Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim,” Malin, a prominent cleric in the Somali capital, told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.

“We call on all Islamic Communities across the world to take revenge on the baseless critic called the pope,” he said.

Reached by telephone on Saturday, Malin confirmed making the remarks that were echoed in less strident form by other senior clerics in the Supreme Islamic Council of Somalia (SICS).

theage.com.au/news/world/somali-cleric-calls-for-popes-death/2006/09/16/1158334739295.html

another:

“America is carrying out the worst kinds of terrorism in the name of fighting terrorism,” Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati said as he led Muslim prayers at the crowded Tehran University mosque.

“America is the sole enemy of humanity,” Jannati, a key member of the powerful Guardian Council, shouted as tens of thousands of worshippers chanted “Death to America.”

multimedia.belointeractive.com/attack/middleeast/0104iran.html

Also, Hezbollah? You should at least know about them, and thier determination to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

I can provide more if you want.
 
faithfulrock3r said:
HARDLINE cleric linked to Somalia’s powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to “hunt down” and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.
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Somali warlords are your representatives of Muslim movements!?

I guess the Apartheid era Dutch reformed Church is the pinnacle of Christianity.
“America is carrying out the worst kinds of terrorism in the name of fighting terrorism,” Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati said as he led Muslim prayers at the crowded Tehran University mosque.
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“America is the sole enemy of humanity,” Jannati, a key member of the powerful Guardian Council, shouted as tens of thousands of worshippers chanted “Death to America.”
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multimedia.belointeractive.com/attack/middleeast/0104iran.html
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Please explain how the above quote is support for terrorism. America is an enemy of Iran. Iran is an enemy of America. Not all conflicts are terrorism. Similarly, being anti-American does not make a terrorist.
Also, Hezbollah? You should at least know about them, and thier determination to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
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I can provide more if you want.
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Hizbullah is at war with Israel, and has been ever since it was founded to fight Israel’s occupation of Lebanon in 1982.

Why is it that every single fight involving Muslims is labelled “terrorism”?

I guess the US is a “terror state” because it “swore to wipe the Taliban off the map” before it invaded Afghanistan, right?

Double standards and dishonest reading of comments. That’s the only way to maintain these positions.
 
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pro_universal:
Somali warlords are your representatives of Muslim movements!?

I guess the Apartheid era Dutch reformed Church is the pinnacle of Christianity.
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Pro, you seem like my muslim friends. When come to religious debate, all they can do is deny…deny…deny… It is very typical.
You are being unfair in this discussion. You said good things about Islam and defend it, but you deny every proof we give you about bad things in Islam even if some verses in Quran support them.

You said that you are dissapointed that many people in this forum are against Islam. Well… well… you haven’t read books published by many mosques in Indonesia. He he… it is very full of hates and lies to Christianity that I couldn’t even read it any further. You don’t know how many churches and Catholic schools have been closed here just because the community around reject it. They don’t want any Christians live in their neighborhood. Of course it is unpublished in the newspaper or TV.
The high clerics here already have fatwa that plurality is haram ! They said plurality is not supported by Quran and should not be supported by any muslims (in Indonesia).

If you come to mosques in Europe or America or if you read Islamic websites in internet, then you will hear beautiful things about Islam, how Islam is full of tolerance, compassion and peace.

Hmm… I hope someday you will know the truth about Islam.
God bless you, my friend !
 
fxrizal said:
You said that you are dissapointed that many people in this forum are against Islam. Well… well… you haven’t read books published by many mosques in Indonesia. He he… it is very full of hates and lies to Christianity that I couldn’t even read it any further. You don’t know how many churches and Catholic schools have been closed here just because the community around reject it. They don’t want any Christians live in their neighborhood. Of course it is unpublished in the newspaper or TV.
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Do you think the large Christian militias who raid Muslim villages and kill the inhabitants might have something to do with this?

Religious violence is a two way street in Indonesia. It’s just plain dishonest to paint Christianity as perfectly innocent compared to Islam there, because both religions have their militant fringes who go around killing other people.
The high clerics here already have fatwa that plurality is haram ! They said plurality is not supported by Quran and should not be supported by any muslims (in Indonesia).
Click to expand...
If you come to mosques in Europe or America or if you read Islamic websites in internet, then you will hear beautiful things about Islam, how Islam is full of tolerance, compassion and peace.
Click to expand...
Hmm… I hope someday you will know the truth about Islam.
God bless you, my friend !
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Who are “the high clerics”? Let’s see the fatwa.
 
Religious violence is a two way street in Indonesia. It’s just plain dishonest to paint Christianity as perfectly innocent compared to Islam there, because both religions have their militant fringes who go around killing other people.
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Right. I would like to see some proof of the rampant killing of Muslims by Christians in Indonesia. So, if you have some from a good source…please provide that.

Also, please do not insult our intelligence by making the claim that Christians are somehow the bad guys here. Lets see, when the coward muslims shot a nun in the back and burned a bunch of churches last week, what was the Christian response. I do not remember any news reports of masques bursting into flames here in the US.

Also, I don’t remember the last time Muslims were put in prison here in the US just for worshiping…for terrorism, yes, worship, no. I also don’t remember reading that masques were being burned down by Christians right and left in every Christian country.

Pro…we know you are upset at the conduct of your muslim friends, but there really is no reason to attack Christians for that.
 
Oh wait, I know what it is. Here is an article about Christian killers in Indonesia…yes, this seems very telling. It seems that three Christians were convicted in the kangaroo courts of Indonesia for killing muslims, and it appears that the courts failed to call people to the witness stand that may have disproved the convictions all together. Executions were swift.

On the other hand, the muslims recently convicted have had their execution date come and go with nothing done to them. Yes, this is the face of justice in action.

washingtontimes.com/world/20060926-120126-9827r.htm
 
pro_universal said:
Do you think the large Christian militias who raid Muslim villages and kill the inhabitants might have something to do with this?

Religious violence is a two way street in Indonesia. It’s just plain dishonest to paint Christianity as perfectly innocent compared to Islam there, because both religions have their militant fringes who go around killing other people.

Who are “the high clerics”? Let’s see the fatwa.
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E. Timor. 2004. Carmelite convent and school bombed and burned to the ground. Even the crucifixes taken off the necks of the nuns. Who were the nuns raiding? They were offering, based entirely on donations, education. What village were they raiding?
 
browser1 said:
Well not just the muslims, the Indians like to burn things. Regardless of religion. Indians can tend to be aggressive.
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Thats a joke right?if anything Indians are faulted for being too passive.I should know, I’m one.
 
Again pro proves my point. He says he opposes terrorism. But hezbullah, a terrorist organization, is fine by him. The fact that they killed US Marines and target civilians does not bother him at all. In Indonesia the Christians are outnumbered and have been viciously persecuted. His response? Well, they fought back. Ah that’s right dhimmi are not permitted to fight back. They just have to accept being murdered. Saying you oppose terrorism is easy when you can still support it in fact and reality. This is why his little quotes are worthless. They are propaganda to push the Islam is peace fallacy and all the while support the terrorists.
 
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