The Pope's words on Islam

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There are many examples which Benedict XVI could have used to discuss the issue of faith and violence. He chose to use an example which referenced Islam. I am not sure why he made that choice especially if part of his aim was to improve dialogue between Catholics and Muslims.

Some Muslim leaders have committed to dialogue and have put the 9-12-06 University of Regensburg lecture behind them even if they were concerned about the lecture’s quote. Other Muslims are insisting upon other action by Benedict XVI.

Benedict XVI has stated since the 9-12-06 lecture that he respects Muslims.

It appears that some of the points in this thread treat Muslims in negative light.

I don’t believe that it was Benedict XVI’s intent to place Muslims in a negative light in his lecture, however. But, the example, that he used during the lecture, places Islam in negative light. And, I don’t believe that Benedict XVI intended to place Islam in negative light.

In order to establish dialogue with Muslims, Benedict XVI is seeking, I think, to learn more about Muslims. And, in order for Benedict XVI to learn more about Muslims, Muslims will need to be patient and respectful of Benedict XVI while engaging in dialogue. Thus, the effort will require learning, respect and patience.

On the other hand, there is in the world much anger, contempt and violence. Some of this anger, contempt and violence appears in the arena of religion and in the interaction between Christians and Muslims.

Some Muslims are angry at some Christians. Some Muslims exhibit contempt for Christians and Christianity. Some Muslims commit violence against some Christians.

And some Christians exhibit anger, contempt and violence towards some Muslims and Islam. There will be argument about which side shows more restraint than the other and about which side is more right than the other.

My argument is that learning, respect and patience should be used. The alternative is anger, contempt and violence.

Bahati
 
bahati said:
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It appears that some of the points in this thread treat Muslims in negative light.   

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Bahati
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The Pope does not have to put Islam in a negative light. Mohhamid and his followers have done an exellent job of that through their actions.
 
bahati, we are not the ones being violent. For real dialogue to occur it might be nice if the Muslims would stop burning churches and murdering Christians. Maybe acknowledge full religious freedom for all. It is not a valid response to hurt feelings to go out and shoot elderly nuns in the back. It’s hard to dialogue with someone when they have dynamite wired inside their jacket. Or when they are in complete denial that there is a problem with that.
 
bahati said:
On the other hand, there is in the world much anger, contempt and violence. Some of this anger, contempt and violence appears in the arena of religion and in the interaction between Christians and Muslims.

Some Muslims are angry at some Christians. Some Muslims exhibit contempt for Christians and Christianity. Some Muslims commit violence against some Christians.

And some Christians exhibit anger, contempt and violence towards some Muslims and Islam. There will be argument about which side shows more restraint than the other and about which side is more right than the other.

My argument is that learning, respect and patience should be used. The alternative is anger, contempt and violence.

Bahati
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Show me the Muslims that were beheaded by Christians. Show me the Muslims that were taken hostage on airplanes and flown into buildings by Christians. Show me the Christians who were burning effigies of Muslim leaders, shouting in the streets and calling for the death of an ayatollah. Show me the Christians who blew themselves up in a cafe full of Muslims. Then we can talk about “the question of who has more restraint”.
 
Gaza Imam: “Only acceptable Christian-Muslim dialogue is for you to convert to Islam.”

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52167

Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Gaza’s Jihadia Salafiya Islamic outreach movement, …said the only Christian-Muslim dialogue that is acceptable is one in which “all religions agree to convert to Islam.”

AllahuAkbar.
 
Violence Against Christians Increases In Iraq, Several Killed
Added: Sep 29th, 2006 4:36 AM

By BosNewsLife News Center

BAGHDAD, IRAQ (BosNewsLife) – Islamic violence against Iraq’s Christian minority has increased in recent days killing at least two people, as the Muslim month of “Ramadan and statements [about Islam] from Pope Benedict XVI have ignited an explosive atmosphere,” well-informed religious rights investigators said Thursday, September 28.

Open Doors, which supports allegedly persecuted Christians, told BosNewsLife that its workers have “reported increased violence” against believers in Iraq where, “besides the bloody strife going on between Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims, the recent violence appears to be directed at Christians.”

The group said, “several Christians have been murdered or abused and kidnapped, and a hand grenade was thrown at a priest’s car.” In other incidents, in Baghdad and Mosul, several churches have been attacked, Open Doors added.

On Wednesday, September 27, a group of men reportedly fired rockets on the Chaldean Church of the Holy Spirit in Mosul and detonated an explosive device outside the church’s door. There were no reports of injuries.

CONDEMNATION DEMANDED

Earlier on Sunday, September 24, the Church of the Holy Spirit was fired upon by Muslims who wanted the local bishop to ssue a condemnation of the pope’s speech, news reports said. A young man wrote on the church doors, **“If the Pope does not apologies, we will bomb all churches, kill more Christians and steal their property and money,” **an Open Doors’ contact reported on condition of anonymity.

Following the threat, some churches reportedly wrote that they refuse to support the Pope’s statements. Also on Sunday, September 24, a hand grenade was thrown at a priest’s car parked outside St Mary’s Ancient Church of the East Cathedral in Baghdad, Open Doors told BosNewsLife. “After police and church members arrived at the scene minutes later, a car bomb went off nearby, killing a child and the church’s guard.”

In addition, “earlier this month, a car bomb went off 250 meters from Open Doors’ property in Baghdad,” the group added. “No one was injured, but visitors were very frightened and co-workers remain anxious,” Open Doors said.

SEEKING SUPPORT

It said it has been urging “the Christian Church to unite in prayer, that the believers and their children will be strengthened, that the church leaders will be able to guide with wisdom and that all will be protected, including the Open Doors’ workers in the country.”

Eddie Lyle, CEO of Open Doors UK & Ireland, said he had urged his supporters “not to look away.” He said he had asked Christians, “to pray in a determined faith-filled way that God will protect His fragile, remnant Church, as well as, dispel the darkness causing Muslims to slaughter each other and attack the Church.”

He stressed that, “prayer is the most important thing we can do at this time, to help raise up the Church to become brokers of peace and moderation in the new Iraq.” (With reports from Iraq).
 
Everyone posting on these threads (other than the Islamists, of course) might want to consider the fact that had you made the statements you made here, openly, in any nation dominated by Islam, you and your family would already have been murdered. Of that, there can be no doubt.

As this country considers its immigration policies, that should be kept firmly and soberly in mind.
 
As a man of leadership he shouldn’t have said what he said. When a leader makes a speech, they do it with a few others over looking the speech. Some times they do not even write the speeches them selve and they are the proof readers, so his words where intentional. This is why the leaders of Islam have a big problem with not accepting the apology which was brief and not sincere.
 
Sufi said:
As a man of leadership he shouldn’t have said what he said. When a leader makes a speech, they do it with a few others over looking the speech. Some times they do not even write the speeches them selve and they are the proof readers, so his words where intentional. This is why the leaders of Islam have a big problem with not accepting the apology which was brief and not sincere.
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So, where are the apologies from the Al-Quaida sheik for his name calling toward the Holy Father and the President of the US? Should all of Christendom run out and start burning mosques, killing innocent Muslims, etc. because Al-Quaida “insulted” the Holy Father and our president? GIVE ME A BREAK!
 
Sufi said:
As a man of leadership he shouldn’t have said what he said. When a leader makes a speech, they do it with a few others over looking the speech. Some times they do not even write the speeches them selve and they are the proof readers, so his words where intentional. This is why the leaders of Islam have a big problem with not accepting the apology which was brief and not sincere.
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Dear Sufi:
I have no problem myself with accepting apologies. I am willing to accept an apology from every member of the Islamic community who called for the death of the Pope. I promise to accept it whether or not it is brief or sincere. There seems to be a difference in the value of life between Islam and Christianity. Islam takes words apparently as the worst violence, whereas Christianity is somewhat shocked at the life taking threats of Islam. Kind of a disparity in values, huh? It’s like this kind of: I call my neighbor a bad word and am given the death penalty. He demands his next door neighbor be shot and he gets only a 100.00 fine. Imagine if the US justice system worked like that? People who committed things like slander or libel would be on death row at San Quentin while people who stalked and attacked others would be given minimum security with a suspended sentence. Wow. Extreme difference in values, huh?
 
A few words of Pope Benedict …and borrowed quotes at that …how God has used it ! - almost as watching the Power in The Word of creation ." Let there be …" or The Words of The Lord , by the priest during the celebration of The Holy Mysteries !

Setting off wave of self examination, toppling off facades … bringing the truth of light …that many an intellectual who might have been attracted by the simplicity and seemingly wide and easy path of following a few rules to be in heaven now hopefully will think again …is it like the alluring promise in The Garden …that only brought bondage and tyranny …

and discover the path , The Way , of real Love and Mercy - seemingly narrow atleast in the beginning ,but the one of true freedom and dignity that gives the wings !
 
My only comment was the Opera Idomeneo canceled in Berlin because people thought Catholics or Protestants were going to resort to violence over seeing Jesus’ severed head on stage? Was it canceled because they thought Buddhist Monks would take up arms a kill people because of seeing Buddah’s severed head on stage? No. It was canceled because of the concern from Muslims killing people over seeing Muhammad’s severed head!

I am tired of the entire world walking on egg-shells because of another group of individuals beliefs. Oh you can say that or do this or believe this because it might enrage a group of individuals that will do senseless harm to others. It’s time some of the people got out of the early centuries and joined the rest of us in modern times. If you want respect and to not be looked at odd on planes, then demand that your religious leaders come out an voice staunch opposition to ANY violence conducted in God’s name.
 
Polycarp_II said:
My only comment was the Opera Idomeneo canceled in Berlin because people thought Catholics or Protestants were going to resort to violence over seeing Jesus’ severed head on stage? Was it canceled because they thought Buddhist Monks would take up arms a kill people because of seeing Buddah’s severed head on stage? No. It was canceled because of the concern from Muslims killing people over seeing Muhammad’s severed head!

I am tired of the entire world walking on egg-shells because of another group of individuals beliefs. Oh you can say that or do this or believe this because it might enrage a group of individuals that will do senseless harm to others. It’s time some of the people got out of the early centuries and joined the rest of us in modern times. If you want respect and to not be looked at odd on planes, then demand that your religious leaders come out an voice staunch opposition to ANY violence conducted in God’s name.
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Very well put!
 
I have been on the fence about the whole Muslim vs western civilization thing a long time. I worked for Muslims and found them to be very kind, gracious and generous. That said, I think that “you will know them by their fruits” carries a lot of wieght. And as far as i can tell Muslim Countries are lagging in the Fruit section! Especially considering how much oil revenue some of these countries take in. But as a follower of Christ I must first and foremost love my neighbor and that includes Muslims. So again i have to look for the face of God in all people. I also have to consider countries like Dubai, Singapore and Turkey. I must say they seem pretty western to me! And I think I have more in common with my Muslim Brothers in regards to Modesty, abortion, contraception and other social issues than with my Christian Brothers. I found this article interesting. It is a Lebanese Newspaper. I disagree with the whole Allignment between Bush and Benedict but the facts are correct.
dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=75821
 
Polycarp_II said:
My only comment was the Opera Idomeneo canceled in Berlin because people thought Catholics or Protestants were going to resort to violence over seeing Jesus’ severed head on stage? Was it canceled because they thought Buddhist Monks would take up arms a kill people because of seeing Buddah’s severed head on stage? No. It was canceled because of the concern from Muslims killing people over seeing Muhammad’s severed head!

I am tired of the entire world walking on egg-shells because of another group of individuals beliefs. Oh you can say that or do this or believe this because it might enrage a group of individuals that will do senseless harm to others. It’s time some of the people got out of the early centuries and joined the rest of us in modern times. If you want respect and to not be looked at odd on planes, then demand that your religious leaders come out an voice staunch opposition to ANY violence conducted in God’s name.
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You are 100% right. Any violence in the name of God is Wrong. I often wonder what the Catholics and Prtestants in Ireland were thinking when they killed each other. What were the priests doing? What were the ministers telling people to do? It’s one thing to prtect yourself. Another to go out and start something
 
Robo, in Turkey it has recently been open season on priests. The ostensibly secular government has been vociferious in attacking the pope. There was a recent book published there on assassinating the pope. Even in Egypt the leader of Al Hazar university, as close to a Muslim pope as they have, actually encouraged the violence. I think that charity does not mean being blind.

No one accused the IRA of being a religious organization. In fact they are marxists. They had no religious goals. This is quite different then Islamic terrorism. The Irish are amateurs in comparison. The Church did condemn terrorism and had no trouble doing so. I have yet to see anything comparable in Islam.
 
1,400 years is more than sufficient time for meaningful dialogue between Muslims and the rest of us. The fact that Muslims are willfully unable to display any empathy for other people’s sensibilities and beliefs cannot be excused any more. All this ‘don’t insult Islam or we will kill you’ antics cut no ice in the 21st century. It might have worked in history but it should have no place today. I know it is prohibited in Islam to denigrate Muhammad or the religion, but that is only a prohibition applicable to Islam. By expecting others to obey this prohibition is merely dhimmitude by stealth.

The few voices of condemnation by so-called moderate Muslims are not enough - there has to be clearly discernible actions by the Muslim community to respect the non-Muslim way of life and belief systems. It does not behove the Muslims to impose their belief systems on us. Don’t firebomb a church just because someone ‘insults’ Muhammad.

You want us to respect you then please show us the same respect.

In short, the time has well and truly passed for mere gestures. It is time Muslims stand up and count themselves amongst cilivized peoples. Punish those who firebomb churches and kill nuns. Punish those who support terrorism. Do this and earn the respect of the world. As things stand, nobody respects Muslims. Not really.
 
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