The Possibility that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is Ex Cathedra Infallible

  • Thread starter Thread starter Coder
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Coder said:
Hi,

He was very clear:
“…all doubt may be removed…great importance,
…pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself…
…in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren…
…this judgment is to be definitively held…
…by all the Church’s faithful.”

When is the time to be clear about it? The time is in the infallible statement itself. “my sheep know my voice”.**

The above is WHY I thought it was an exercise of the EM. But then there was the RAD, which the Holy Father did not thereafter contradict. This begins to be deep water for ME, at least (you want Itsjustdave or Mosher for a really good thrashing out of the issue), but it would seem that the Holy Father was content for the RAD to be sent out to the faithful, so it must have expressed his mind. It would be problematic if nothing had been said and then the RAD had been sent out after he passed away. But several years passed (quite a few, in fact) after the RAD was issued and before he died. That being the case, if OS IS** an exercise of the EM, how could it be other than sort of, well, an accidental ex cathedra definition (which, in terms of theology and ecclesiology, is oxymoronic)? Why didn’t the Holy Father say something?

I’m not trying to muddy the waters. Have you asked a apologist on CA? I rec. an email to Itsjustdave and Mosher.
Click to expand...
 
Hi, JKirk,
This begins to be deep water for ME, at least (you want Itsjustdave or Mosher for a really good thrashing out of the issue),
Click to expand...
It may only seem exceptionally deep because of the general misunderstanding of ex cathedra infallibility and the purpose of infallibility. Itsjustdave said it was currently in debate among theologians but did not wish to debate it with me.
Why didn’t the Holy Father say something?
Click to expand...
Interesting to consider - how can an ex cathedra statement be strengthened by a non-infallible statement? In OS he said “confirming the brethren”. Also, what specifically in RAD are you referring to that you think definitively settled (or intended to) the question as to whether OS is ex cathedra infallible? Perhaps if I can address specifics I can be more helpful.

Enjoying the discussion 🙂
 
Code of Canon Law said:
Can. 749 §3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.
Click to expand...

Is it manifestly evident? Of course not. If it were manifestly demonstrated, the Responsum would not have been necessary.

John
 
Hi,
John_Higgins said:
Is it manifestly evident? Of course not. If it were manifestly demonstrated, the Responsum would not have been necessary.John
Click to expand...
The Cover Letter of RAD clearly stated the purpose of RAD:
“These reactions attempted to cast doubt on the definitive character of the letter’s teaching on the inadmissibility of women to the ministerial priesthood and also questioned whether this teaching belonged to the deposit of the faith.
This congregation therefore has judged it necessary to dispel the doubts and reservations…”

The cover letter says nothing at all about its purpose being to show that OS was not put forth ex cathedra.

“…attempted to cast doubt on the definitive character of the letter’s teaching…”
In fact, who is attempting to cast doubt on OS’s definitive character. Is it possibly some who claim it is not ex cathedra?
 
Attempting to make everything that comes out in papal pronouncements infallible is in direct conflict with the definitions from Vatican I. This is usually referred to “creeping infallibility”.

While it is certainly an authentic teaching, it does not meet the test of infallibility.

John
 
John_Higgins said:
Attempting to make everything that comes out in papal pronouncements infallible…
Click to expand...
I am not doing that at all - I am discussing this one teaching.
John_Higgins said:
it does not meet the test of infallibility
Click to expand...
Vatican I defines the meaning of ex cathedra and indicates that ex cathedra basically means from the Chair of Peter and deciding a doctrine to be held by all Christians. OS seems to clearly meet that definition.

…in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren…
Chair of Peter

…this judgment is to be definitively held…
deciding a doctrine

…by all the Church’s faithful."
all Christians

Seems ex cathedra quite clearly.
 
From the Vatcan:
"The*** reason for ex cathedra definitions*** is almost always to give this certification to the truths that are to be believed as belonging to the “deposit of faith” and to exclude all doubt…"
Click to expand...
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930317en.html

OS: in order that all doubt may be removed
“Thereason for ex cathedra definitions is almost always to give this certification to the truths that are to be believed as belonging to the "deposit of faith" and to exclude all doubt…”
Click to expand...
So therefore RAD may be even be indicating that OS is ex cathedra since it said that the pope was stating that the teaching belongs to the deposit of faith.
 
This document regarding Papal Infallibility was published in 1993 and OS was stated in 1994:

This document showed the Vatican I defintion of ex cathedra of infallibility, and explained that ex cathedra teaching is almost always used to certify and eliminate all doubt, or even condemn error.

Note also that the document quotes the Vatican II discussion of ex cathedra infallibility: “confirms his brethren”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930317en.html

I think it is very revealing that this document one year before OS used this language in describing ex cathedra infallibility:
“…exclude all doubt…”
“…confirms his brethren…”
and the words of OS state:
“…all doubt may be removed…
…my ministry of confirming the brethren…”

Also the document said this regarding ex cathedra infallibility:
‘…a charism of assistance from the Holy Spirit that is customarily called “infallibility.”’
(It is clear that it was referring to ex cathedra infallibility because this statement was indicated to be further discussed by the Vatican I definition which immediately follwed the statement.)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930317en.html

Then observe that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was put forth on Sunday May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost!

I think it is clear that we now have three ex cathedra teachings:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top