The Power in Purgatory

[mommyof4]

I do not think you understand the Catholic position.

Christ’s death and resurrection were and are ‘sufficient’ to forgive any and all sins.

But the Catholic position is not, and never was, that Christ’s death and resurrection were NOT sufficient, so that’s a strawman.

The Catholic position is that, as with everything else salvific, our cooperation is required. Christ gives us sufficient grace for salvation–every one of us–but we must cooperate with that grace. The man (or woman) who persists in sin is not ‘saved in spite of himself’.

If Christ’s death and resurrection worked to cover sin ‘sufficiently’ enough that nothing else were needed, then the worst unrepentant axe murderer would enter heaven. After all, his sins were ‘forgiven’, weren’t they?

But, you’ll say, cooperation is assumed. A simple ‘confession with the mouth’ is all that is needed. Thus, that same axe murderer, should he profess Christ as Lord, is assumed then to ‘cooperate’ and thus walk into heaven just as freely as the person he murdered, should that person likewise have ‘confessed with the mouth.’

But. . .I recall passages from Matthew where Jesus speaks of the judgment, where people are separated into ‘sheep’ and ‘goats’. Now, none of these are told, “did you confess me with your mouth? Advance into heaven!” No, rather they are told, “I was hungry and you fed me” or "I was hungry, and you did not feed me’.

Actions seem to matter a great deal more than words. Because many of these people never actually thought that they were doing anything for CHRIST Himself. “Confessing Him with the mouth” was not even on the list. “Doing unto others” was.

The action of killing a person is a great evil. Even when the action is forgiven, the effect of the killing remains. The victim’s life cut short, the trauma to the family members, the effects on thousands of lives throughout time. . .these remain. Justice demands that this be recognized. In spite of forgiveness, restitution must be made.

Since forgiveness (if confessed sincerely) we know will be given, it stands to reason that there must be some way of making restitution for the ‘effects’ of mortal sins. This is justice; the mercy of course is that we are forgiven in the first place.

Purgatory is justice. No one is ever sent to HELL from Purgatory. Only those ‘forgiven’ who yet have to restore the temporal effects from their sins and can no longer do so on earth enter purgatory. We know from scripture that nothing evil can enter heaven. The residual effects of the evil keep a person from heaven. He must be ‘saved, as though through fire’ as Scripture tells us. It is a cooperative effort with Christ, made possibly ONLY through His mercy, acknowledging the forgiveness that makes Purgatory POSSIBLE.

This is one of the best explainations of the need for purgatory that I have ever read. Thank you!

 

[Truthstalker]

This is one of the best explainations of the need for purgatory that I have ever read. Thank you!

I am always pleased when I see Tantum has posted on a thread I am interested in.

 

[Todd_Easton]

This remaining temporal punishment may be forgiven in this life through works of penance (prayer, fasting, almsgiving, etc.) or it will be forgiven in the next life in Purgatory by an application of the blood of Christ in a baptism of fire.

I forgot something . . .
Our works of penance (prayers, fasting, almsgiving, indulgences, etc.) can also be applied toward the forgiveness of the remaining temporal punishment of the dead and shorten or lesson the suffer that they experience during the application of the blood of Christ in their after-death baptism of fire. (2 Maccabees 12:38-46)

 

[Truthstalker]

I forgot something . . .
Our works of penance (prayers, fasting, almsgiving, indulgences, etc.) can also be applied toward the forgiveness of the remaining temporal punishment of the dead and shorten or lesson the suffer that they experience during the application of the blood of Christ in their after-death baptism of fire. (2 Maccabees 12:38-46)

Focus in on the bold, please. How does this work? How is Purgatory not human effort? Show me where it says that, as opposed to being where someone must pay for their sins.

 

[mark_a]

We are saved not by our own work but by the grace of God. We are not saved because we are good but because God is good. Whatever good we do is not us but is God working in us. We can take no credit and cannot compare ourselves to someone else, as God alone is the judge. We all start at different places and life is a different challenge for each of us - you may be way ahead of Mother Theresa on sanctity, if you started way behind her and covered far more distance with more effort. Maybe. You don’t know.

We are not far apart here. The CCC is replete with the goodness of God, and how he puts it in every person. I really can’t find anything to argue with about salvation/justification.

But I know people who refuse to do good or even suffer or make a sacrafice for another because they believe the price has been paid by Jesus. This seems to me to be the opposite extreme of what Catholics are (unjustifiably) accused of in the “faith and works” argument. We must do God’s good works even if we don’t necessarily feel like it. Good works flow from a well formed consience.

Why should non-Catholics care if Catholics think they need a little purification after they die?

As I understand the “purgatory” problem though, the idea of prayer for souls in purgatory has historically been the problem for most non-Catholics.

And originally, Martin Luther did not like the idea that certain members of the Church were extorting money for the Church by abusing purgatory. And rightfully so. And just because the math teacher is a jerk doesn’t mean 1+1 no longer equals 2.

We have reduced ourselves to argueing about catch phrases like purgatory or evolution or stem cell research by forgetting what the original disagreements were about.
Respectfully,

Mark

 

[Nita]

Focus in on the bold, please. How does this work? How is Purgatory not human effort? Show me where it says that, as opposed to being where someone must pay for their sins.

Purgatory probably does involve human effort, the same as it does here on earth. But it would be human effort that results from cooperating with grace. Grace is the power that fuels us - here and in Purgatory. Of course, it may also be that we can do nothing to cooperate; that it’s something done to us. (Analogy: receiving radiation treatment; operation; medical procedure to heal where doctor does the work and patient’s involvement receiving the treatment.)

In addition to the pain involved in being purged of the remaining impurities in our souls, there will also be the pain of temporal punishment due our sins. I think a large part of this pain will be seeing the consequences of each and every one of our sins - for I do think we will be shown that. The tremendous anguish and sorrow we experience from this may well be the pain that “pays for our sins”. And as said above, it will be Our Lord’s grace strenthening our souls (to the degree we can cooperate with it) that will be the power accomplishing this perfecting process.

You asked earlier if Purgatory is more a “setting to rights than a punishment for sins”. It’s probably both. I think the setting to rights will cause us pain. If you are asking God’s purpose for it, I would say it’s either 100% or 99.9% “setting to right”. But, if you’re asking which is going to characterize the experience in us sinners, well…

Don’t ask me for an official document stating all the above because I don’t think it exists. It’s my personal way of looking or understanding the official teaching about purgatory, the “why” of pain there, etc.

I don’t know if this helps in any way with what you mean by “how”. Here on earth a major way we receive God’s grace is through the sacraments. If you’re asking how (by what means) we will receive grace in Purgatory, I don’t know. The sacraments will not be there.

Nita

 

[Truthstalker]

. If you’re asking how (by what means) we will receive grace in Purgatory, I don’t know. The sacraments will not be there.

Nita

That may well be the question. How is grace effective in Purgatory?

That sound you hear is me scratching my head.

The sacraments will not be there? Baptism, marriage, ordination definitely not. Confession? Hmmm. Eucharist? Hmmm. Confirmation? Hmmm. Something else that may be peculiar to Purgatory? Hmmmm.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

This may help you to understand.

amazon.com/Purgatory-Explained-Lives-Legends-Saints/dp/0895553015

It is very reasonable in price - under $3.00

Peace

John

 

[Todd_Easton]

during the application of the blood of Christ in their after-death baptism of fire.

Focus in on the bold, please. How does this work? How is Purgatory not human effort? Show me where it says that, as opposed to being where someone must pay for their sins.

2But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he [the LORD of hosts] is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. (Malachi 3:2-3)

Incidentally, the Latin for 'he will purify’ is purgabit from the same root as *Purgatory. *

 

[Truthstalker]

2But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he [the LORD of hosts] is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. (Malachi 3:2-3)

Incidentally, the Latin for 'he will purify’ is purgabit from the same root as Purgatory.

That’s good. But I’m still looking for an official Catholic teaching that says the journey through Purgatory is via grace. I’m beginning to think this is just not developed, or somehow I’ve veered off into theological no-man’s land.

We did the Catholic Monergism thread, which has a bearing on this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=127350

There are still some dots that need connecting for me. The dots also need to be pointed out to me. Let’s see:

1.Purgatory is powered by the Passion
2. We are not passive in Purgatory but positively cooperative, meaning we don’t have the ability to refuse purgation or commit mortal sin.
3. The work and the glory of purgation are Christ’s: any cleansing we receive goes to His glory not ours

What else?

 

[I_Leatherman]

We agree that sins matter.

We agree that there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1), so sin does not condemn us.

We agree that sins do damage which can be repaired. When we die (as a result of the fall, and thus a consequence of sin), we are raised from the dead: this is a restitution empowered by Christ,not by us. His power, not ours, is at work in our redemption. He put all things to right by His sacrifice. So how can we put anything to right by an expiative suffering?

Some things are never put to right on earth. Some suffer the penalty of their sin, which is eternal death (hell). I have trouble with the concept of a penalty for sin short of eternal death. To me forgiveness is all or none, not a “tabulation on the side”, a bill I will be presented with that I must pay.

I can see we need to be cleaned up before we enter heaven. If I die at 102 in frail health, I would appreciate being restored to about 18 years of age, not simply revived as a 102 year old with frail health. But paying for my sins? Isn’t that what Jesus did?

I have’nt read all this thread, but anyway.
You don’t believe/accept/understand temporal punishment for sins?
But what about the first sin. I suppose, Adam was forgiven because, as it was promised there would be a redeemer, but, even though I think there is reason to believe Adam was forgiven, he still had to suffer for disobeying. Cast out of paradise he now had to toil for his food, suffer illness, and ultimately suffer death.
I think we are told we have to pick up our cross daily and follow, by the same Lord who walked in the Garden and spoke to Adam.
I think justice demands restitution and God is perfectly just.
And you may not even be in debt when you die, so its not that bad.

 

[prv]

But what powers the cleaning? Is it our action or the completed work of Christ?

What brings us to purgatory and eventually into paradise is entirely God’s doing and God’s alone. He desires that no one be condemned. But we have sinned. And nothing unclean can enter heaven. So he permits us, but only by his own mercy and grace, to be cleansed before entering heaven. Entirely different from punishment of the condemned.

We do absolutely nothing to merit a stay in purgatory as opposed to hell. It is all part of God’s plan of salvation and the work of the death of the Lord on the Holy Cross.

It is as if you were invited to a banquet but did not come either washed or with appropriate clothing. The host invites you to use his bathroom and gives you something to wear. Now, if you did this in real life, the host might just kick you out of the party. But in his mercy (at least in this case), he allows you to use his facilities. In like manner, it is from the mercy of God that we are permitted to “use”, so to speak, purgatory in order to be cleansed. You still get your invitation to paradise, you just need to be appropriately dressed.

In other words, the completed work of Christ is what permits you to be fully cleansed before entering paradise.

(I have heard this banquet example so many times I don’t remember who to give credit to for it.)

 

[Nita]

That may well be the question. How is grace effective in Purgatory?

That sound you hear is me scratching my head.

The sacraments will not be there? Baptism, marriage, ordination definitely not. Confession? Hmmm. Eucharist? Hmmm. Confirmation? Hmmm. Something else that may be peculiar to Purgatory? Hmmmm.

Sacraments involve material elements and I don’t think matter is a part of the next world, at least not the way it is here. Our bodies won’t be there.

Life after death experiences are interesting here. Those who did not have a happy experience (these were suicide cases that I read about) said they took their lives to escape problems here. But they discovered the problems did not stay behind, they were all still there, still had to be dealt with. Also, they knew, or were given the understanding, that it would be easier to deal with it in the world than in the afterlife.

I figure that’s because you have people, the Church, etc. to help in this life.

Nita

Nita

 

[Truthstalker]

What brings us to purgatory and eventually into paradise is entirely God’s doing and God’s alone. He desires that no one be condemned. But we have sinned. And nothing unclean can enter heaven. So he permits us, but only by his own mercy and grace, to be cleansed before entering heaven. Entirely different from punishment of the condemned.

We do absolutely nothing to merit a stay in purgatory as opposed to hell. It is all part of God’s plan of salvation and the work of the death of the Lord on the Holy Cross.

It is as if you were invited to a banquet but did not come either washed or with appropriate clothing. The host invites you to use his bathroom and gives you something to wear. Now, if you did this in real life, the host might just kick you out of the party. But in his mercy (at least in this case), he allows you to use his facilities. In like manner, it is from the mercy of God that we are permitted to “use”, so to speak, purgatory in order to be cleansed. You still get your invitation to paradise, you just need to be appropriately dressed.

In other words, the completed work of Christ is what permits you to be fully cleansed before entering paradise.

(I have heard this banquet example so many times I don’t remember who to give credit to for it.)

To be finicky: He makes sure you are dressed properly - even if He bathes and dresses you rather than you doing it. You have to sit still in the tub, however. I’m thinking of a certain dog I know that hates baths and has to be held in the tub during the cleansing…

 

[Nita]

To be finicky: He makes sure you are dressed properly - even if He bathes and dresses you rather than you doing it. You have to sit still in the tub, however. I’m thinking of a certain dog I know that hates baths and has to be held in the tub during the cleansing…

Hope you’re not like that dog; or you might be in Purgatory for awhile.

 

[Nita]

That’s good. But I’m still looking for an official Catholic teaching that says the journey through Purgatory is via grace. I’m beginning to think this is just not developed, or somehow I’ve veered off into theological no-man’s land.

We did the Catholic Monergism thread, which has a bearing on this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=127350

There are still some dots that need connecting for me. The dots also need to be pointed out to me. Let’s see:

1.Purgatory is powered by the Passion
2. We are not passive in Purgatory but positively cooperative, meaning we don’t have the ability to refuse purgation or commit mortal sin.
3. The work and the glory of purgation are Christ’s: any cleansing we receive goes to His glory not ours

What else?

To my knowledge, there isn’t a doctine that states specifically that the journey through purgatory is via grace. Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” gives two teachings on Purgatory - and of the two only one is dogmatic : “The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory.”

In the background for that dogma Ott states:
The remission of the venial sins which are not yet remitted, occurs, according to the teaching of St. Thomas, as it does in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace."

I would guess part of the reason for it not being specifically defined (purgation via grace) is because it is implicit in the understanding of what is taking place in purgation. Purgation is a good thing, a perfecting; and all good is ultimately a work of God and a gift (grace) given to us.

Probably will take some heretic saying our purgation is not accomplished by God’s grace but on our own strength!! Then the matter will get officially defined.

Not sure if that connects any dots for you or not.

Nita

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins

half-true

• the blood of Christ does not cover them in this

Not true in the slightest - entirely false

and so they must suffer.

true, except for the copula “so”.​

The standard Protestant response to this is to arch one’s eyebrow and say, “Oh, and was Christ’s sacrifice insufficient to cover all your sin? I see no basis for the concept of temporal sin - sin is sin, and His sacrifice is all the expiation for all sin I ever need.”

It is impossible that the Precious Blood of Christ should not be sufficient for the sins of countless sinners in countless worlds - the Protestant is right to reject any limitation of its redeeming power.​

But he is mistaken in denying the concept of temporal punishment - which is the correct phrase. Both King David & the crucified robber were punished for their sins in this world: it has been taken for granted on both sides of the Reformation divide that we are punished in this world for our sins. Indeed it is teaching of Scripture - see Hebrews 12: God “chastens” His sons. So I don’t think TP is precisely the problem.

And the Catholic then says…

 

[apophasis]

half-true Not true in the slightest - entirely false## true, except for the copula “so”. ## It is impossible that the Precious Blood of Christ should not be sufficient for the sins of countless sinners in countless worlds - the Protestant is right to reject any limitation of its redeeming power.

But he is mistaken in denying the concept of temporal punishment - which is the correct phrase. Both King David & the crucified robber were punished for their sins in this world: it has been taken for granted on both sides of the Reformation divide that we are punished in this world for our sins. Indeed it is teaching of Scripture - see Hebrews 12: God “chastens” His sons. So I don’t think TP is precisely the problem.

Nice way to dance around the REAL issue, Michael. David being chastised by God, and the thief being crucified by the Roman government have absolutely NOTHING to do with the non-biblical doctrine of “purgatory” with its notion of cleansing (purging) a man of so-called venial sins in preparation for heaven (keep in mind David committed murder and the thief transgressed one of the “Ten Commandments” = venial?).

In respect to ALL sin, the issue truly is the efficacy of the shed blood of God’s Substitute on the cross on our behalf and the denial of it in Rome’s false doctrine of “purgatory.” Dance around it all you want but THAT still remains the fundamental issue.

And fundamental to this fundamental issue is belief vs. unbelief.

 

[Nita]

Nice way to dance around the REAL issue, Michael. David being chastised by God, and the thief being crucified by the Roman government have absolutely NOTHING to do with the non-biblical doctrine of “purgatory” with its notion of cleansing (purging) a man of so-called venial sins in preparation for heaven (keep in mind David committed murder and the thief transgressed one of the “Ten Commandments” = venial?).

.

The example of David is not meant to be analagous to the cleansing of venial sin, but rather to temporal punishment due for sin. David repented and was forgiven by God, but there was still further punishment he had to undergo after that.

Nita

 

[apophasis]

The example of David is not meant to be analagous to the cleansing of venial sin, but rather to temporal punishment due for sin. David repented and was forgiven by God, but there was still further punishment he had to undergo after that.

Nita

Which had absolutely NOTHING to do with the cleansing of his sins. The actual cleansing of David’s sins was accomplished through the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross, as was the thief’s (see Rom. 3:25; cf Jn. 1:29). For this reason Scripture reveals no such place or need of “purgatory.” A doctrine fabricated by men, borne out of unbelief.Heb. 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.