The power of Latin and other Church languages

[JulianN]

Yes. And Hebrew and Aramaic. If we’re using the argument that Jesus sanctified the language, either of those languages would have a greater claim on holiness.

 

[Hodos]

I said that Latin is a Holy language.

Right. And the point of my response is this, what makes Latin a “Holy language?” Of itself, it has no more inherent value than any other language. Again, it is the message that is communicated that sanctifies what is spoken. I assure you, I can find some Pompeiian graffiti written in Latin that convey messages that are not holy, but quite obscene. The devil doesn’t hate Latin any more than he hates any other language spoken by man. In fact, if you look at some of the deeds performed under orders given in Latin by such as Nero, Domitian, Trajan, etc., the devil has done quite a bit of work through the use of the Latin language. Do not put your trust in an invention of man. Rather, put your trust in the Lord.

Also I don’t believe I am familiar witht he pharisee quote.

It’s just a paraphrase from Matthew 23. Interesting passage if you get the chance to check it out.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I’ve gone to liturgies in Arabic, Syriac, English, Spanish, Korean, Malayalam, I don’t find those languages less important than Latin, and @Diaconia made a very good point about Greek. In fact, one of the things I do when I read my study Bible, is go straight to the Greek word study

 

[phil19034]

Famulus:

devil hates Latin

Show me in the Bible, the catechism, or Church documents where it says that. The devil hates holiness.

FYI - many exorcists have said that the devil hates Latin & that the exact same prayer by the same priest is more powerful in Latin.

HOWEVER, I don’t think it’s the language itself that the devil hates. It’s the reason it is being learned that drives him crazy. When you learn Latin for pious / Church reasons it ticks off the devil even more, because to become good at praying in Latin today, one must go above and beyond what is required.

NOTE: exorcists will also say that the most important thing is the holiness of the priest. But all things being equal, Latin prayers are more effective according to numerous exorcists (even ones who don’t celebrate the Latin mass).

@Famulus

 

[phil19034]

OK, that’s a little harsh.

The Church didn’t get rid of Latin, it’s still the official language and the language that the Mass is written in.

The Church will always use Latin as the official draft of the Mass, the Liturgy of the Hours, etc to insure that future re-translations are faithful when our modern vernacular languages don’t make sense anymore.

500 years from now, English speakers will be reading these posts and have as much trouble understanding what we’re talking about as we have trouble reading English from 500 years ago.

That’s why Latin will not “die”

 

[Famulus]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

 

[phil19034]

I’ve gone to liturgies in Arabic, Syriac, English, Spanish, Korean, Malayalam, I don’t find those languages less important than Latin, and @Diaconia made a very good point about Greek. In fact, one of the things I do when I read my study Bible, is go straight to the Greek word study

Correct. When you are doing a study on the original meaning, you always return to the original language.

The Bible was written in Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic.

The Mass, Liturgy of the Hours, and thousands of Church documents were written in Latin.

If you want an in-depth study of what each prayer in the Mass means, then you need to study it in the Latin, just like you need to study the New Testament in the Greek if you want an in-depth study of what it means.

“Holy Languages” are the languages that holy writings are originally written in.

• Koine Greek
• Aramaic
• Hebrew
• Slavic
• Latin
• Coptic
• Geʽez
• Armenian
• Syriac
• Malayalam
• Chaldean
• etc

All of the above are holy languages for the Catholic Church because the Scriptures/Mass/Divine Liturgy/Hours/etc were all written in at least one of them.

@Famulus - let’s not over emphasize Latin’s importance. The other languages I mentioned are just as holy to the Catholic Church as Latin. The only reason why Latin is more “important” is because the Latin Church is far larger than the rest of the Church.

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

wrong phil,latin is dead,nothing is written in latin,we are not confused with our language,that why v2 changed the mass to you own language,latin sucks,sorry

@enoch1 - The Mass of Pope Paul VI was written in Latin. The original manuscript & the official copies of the 1969 Mass is in Latin.

Also, the original manuscript of the 1969 Liturgy of the Hours is in Latin.

When the Bishops translation the Mass or Liturgy of the Hours to the vernacular, they translate if from Latin to their vernacular language.

For example, when the Mass in English changed in 2011, it was because the English translation of the Mass (from the Latin) wasn’t considered by the Vatican to be exact enough. So the Vatican ordered the English speaking Bishops to retranslate the Mass to english from the Latin.

So Latin isn’t “dead.”

NOW: are every single new document the Church writes in Latin, no. Some are written in Italian or even English. But in regards to the Liturgy, the everything in the Roman Rite is written in Latin.

 

[OraLabora]

Also, the original manuscript of the 1969 Liturgy of the Hours is in Latin.

And I even chant it in Latin every day! Latin is very important to the Church, but it is just a language, and in fact was the “vernacular” at one point that everyone understood in the main areas the Western Church was operating. Now some very holy sacred music was written in Latin… aka Gregorian chant (and other chant traditions). It isn’t the Latin that is holy, it is the words themselves, the vast majority of which come from scripture. And that scripture itself is a translation from an original source language into Latin.

latin is dead,terrible language,it isnt pretty

Blasphemous words to a big fan of Gregorian chant. Some hauntingly beautiful chant was written in Latin, and only works with Latin because of the accentuation. It is part of the sacred patrimony of the Church.

 

[phil19034]

im not trolling. i just dont understand the interest in latin,im an old man and went through V2…it was wonderful to me,ive studied v2 and i love it,going back to latin seems like everything v2 stood for is a slap in the face,

I’m sorry, but I don’t see how using Latin is a slap in the face to Vatican II.

Pope Paul VI & John Paul II listed a number of prayers that every Catholic should know in Latin, and Vatican II called for Latin & Gregorian Chant to remain in a kind of pride of place.

Sacrosanctum Concilium says the following about Latin:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

• Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
• And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

1. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly. The vernacular version, however, must be one that is drawn up according to the provision of Art. 36.

• 1. The competent superior has the power to grant the use of the vernacular in the celebration of the divine office, even in choir, to nuns and to members of institutes dedicated to acquiring perfection, both men who are not clerics and women. The version, however, must be one that is approved.
• 1. Any cleric bound to the divine office fulfills his obligation if he prays the office in the vernacular together with a group of the faithful or with those mentioned in 52 above provided that the text of the translation is approved.

Point is, the Second Vatican Council allowed the vernacular to be used. But it didn’t intend for Latin to 100% disappear from our parishes & cathedrals.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

(cont)

 

[phil19034]

im not trolling. i just dont understand the interest in latin,im an old man and went through V2…it was wonderful to me,ive studied v2 and i love it,going back to latin seems like everything v2 stood for is a slap in the face,

(cont)

That said, few people are asking for the mass to be back to 100% in Latin. However, some people are simply asking for a few Latin Prayers (like the Agnus Dei or Santos to be prayed in Latin at least at once in a while).

And some people are asking to be able to access to the Latin Mass, when possible without being prevented from it.

Sure, there are a minority of people who are calling for the whole Church to return to the Latin Mass, but that’s a small minority. The rest of the people who want some Latin are simply asking for a little or access to the Latin Mass.

What I fail to understand is why people who prefer Latin are vilified, even if they are not trying to force Latin on everyone?

God Bless

 

[CRV]

OMG,latin is not holy,its a dead language

Please stop using that abbreviation at the beginning of your post. It is taking the Lords name in vain - you are not imploring/beseeching/petitioning Him in prayer for divine help after all.

Whilst a lot of people use that secular term unthinkingly to express a number of emotions such as surprise - it is still wrong, and for me offensive.

I see your profile does not say whether you are Catholic, even though your comment in post #34 suggests you are.

 

[Famulus]

Agreed. Aside from the opinion, taking the Lord’s name in vain is not ever warranted, although I must assume he did not know that that is also taking the Lord’s name in vain.

 

[CRV]

I must assume he did not know that that is also taking the Lord’s name in vain.

Most people don’t realize it is. Unfortunately it is a habit picked up, and then is said unthinkingly and without truly realizing the significance of what is being said.

I just don’t think it is appropriate to read such here, with CAF being a Catholic website.

 

[Famulus]

Yeah. Up until I heard a traditional Excorcist say that it was wrong, I was still saying ‘‘Oh my Gosh’’ regularly. Even if looked up, it says it is a euphemism for the name of God. So many don’t know! Even some of the most traditional fall into this so hidden snare set by the devil.

 

[CRV]

As I really don’t want to derail this thread (so I won’t be commenting further), but as it does cover language in general, you might be interested to read the following article-
Ask a Priest – “Oh My God”, Am I Breaking the Second Commandment?

 

[Maximian]

Why? Surely you don’t subscribe to the principle “sola scriptura?”

 

[Maximian]

Second Vatican Council allowed the vernacular to be used. But it didn’t intend for Latin to 100% disappear from our parishes & cathedrals.

It didn’t even intend for it to 50% disappear…

 

[JSRG]

Well Latin is the language of the Church.

Latin is the language of the church–or more accurately the Latin Rite–because that was the language people spoke. People didn’t latch onto Latin because it was regarded as some kind of amazingly sacred language, they used it because it was the language people spoke. Well, in some regions–in regions where other languages were spoken, those languages were retained in the liturgy, e.g. the eastern churches kept using Greek, Armenian, etc.

Latin then became even more dominant after the Great Schism, as most of the church that spoke different languages had broken off. (some of the non-Latin-speaking churches did stay in communion, or returned later, but they generally have not adopted Latin)

Eventually Latin felt into disuse even in the Latin Rite because all of the Latin-speaking areas started drifting apart linguistically, turning into different languages entirely, like Spanish, Italian, and French. Latin kept being used by the church and even in non-religious documents by intellectuals, but I believe this was largely due to expediency–it was very beneficial to have a common language for communication. (To a certain extent, English serves this role in the world today.)

The church mostly uses Latin nowadays because it’s been long-time tradition and even if it is limited in usage, it still does have the the same “shared language” idea that kept it going.

The idea that Latin in and of itself has any kind of special holy quality doesn’t really make much sense and seems more superstitious than anything else.

 

[ltwin]

Why? Surely you don’t subscribe to the principle “sola scriptura?”

What does that have to do with the question asked? Famulus’s claim that the “devil hates Latin” is either true or it is false. How does Famulus know what languages the devil hates? Their own opinion or some private revelation? It’s fair to ask Famulus on what authority they are basing such claims.