The Power of Music

[PetraG]

As you note, this was an issue of posture about which the GIRM specifically noted the authority of the Diocesan Bishop to make variations. There aren’t a lot of places in the GIRM that specifically say “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise,” but this was one of them. Archbishop Sample has decided it was more fitting to return to the same posture used elsewhere, so now the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon is back to kneeling after the Agnus Dei.

As for the topic of this thread, which is sacred music, I would be extremely surprised if there were any errors in Archbishop Sample’s recent pastoral letter. I have heard some say he leans a bit hard on this point or that, but generally speaking I have found he does concede in his writing when he has chosen one way as what he believes to be the best of the allowed variations and when he is talking about the only way of doing something that is typically allowed at all.

The Pope is the Supreme Liturgist of the Church, however, and the Holy See has the authority to change a great deal. A well-known recent example is Pope Francis’ decision to explicitly grant permission to wash the feet of both women and men on Holy Thursday (which the Vatican later clarified was not an edict that priests were required to include women in that ritual).

You would have to talk to a liturgist to find out what aspects of the Holy Mass are a matter of dogma and beyond alteration. That is WAY above my pay grade!!

 

[EmmaSowl]

It’s just this one parish is especially awesome. St. John Cantius.

Lol, (I’m sorry, I’m laughing cuz I’m a black humor fan) I will check that parish out next time someone on my dad’s side of the family croaks. Again, I was reared to love black humor.

But seriously, I would love to attend an awesome parish.

I think I’m gonna go to my first Latin Mass tomorrow - it just works out logistically for me. Fingers crossed. Pray I can find a skirt to wear (I’m a pants broad).

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Well, I hope you enjoy Latin Mass if you go tomorrow! The first time I went, it wasn’t really what I expected.
Sounds like it might be a good option for you though!

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I think this Q and A sums it up pretty well!
https://musicasacra.com/about-cmaa/faq/

 

[EmmaSowl]

so now the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon is back to kneeling after the Agnus Dei.

Oh, how I wish Bishop Gomez in LA would do as Bishop Sample did! Especially since Bishop Gomez (to my knowledge) never told us to stand.

A well-known recent example is Pope Francis’ decision to explicitly grant permission to wash the feet of both women and men on Holy Thursday (which the Vatican later clarified was not an edict that priests were required to include women in that ritual).

In my experience, when the Vatican clarifies that a pope’s actions are not an edict, that’s a sign that the pope was behaving like Peter when Paul rightly rebuked him. (Btw, 20 years ago, in my parish, women were getting their feet washed long before Pope Francis did it - but that does not mean it was right).

You would have to talk to a liturgist to find out what aspects of the Holy Mass are a matter of dogma and beyond alteration.

My apologetics teacher taught me a phrase which I will cherish to my grave: “Logic is our best defense against The Experts.”

Notice he said “experts” not “authorities”. Liturgists are “experts” in their fields but they have no more authority than theologians. They do not make the final call.

It would be nice to think that liturgists attempt to follow the teachings of the Church. I have not met one liturgist in person who cares what the bishops say (and I’ve interacted with A LOT of liturgists). So, naturally, I see no reason to defer to someone on religious matters who only has knowledge of music in general and disdains decrees about religious music.

I do not believe the GIRM states, “When in doubt, ask a liturgist.”

 

[EmmaSowl]

1. Bearing in mind the important place that singing has in a celebration as a necessary or integral part of the Liturgy,[151] all musical settings for the texts of the Ordinary of Mass, for the people’s responses and acclamations, and for the special rites that occur in the course of the liturgical year must be submitted to the Secretariat of Divine Worship of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for review and approval prior to publication.

I do not know if this is done for every hymnal. The hymnals used in our parish have the imprimatur of one lone bishop, not that of the Secretariat of Divine Worship of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

1. The special norms handed down by means of the Instruction on the Roman Liturgy and Inculturation[156] should be attentively observed.

Amen.

1. However, before proceeding to new adaptations, especially profounder ones, great care shall be taken to promote due instruction of the clergy and the faithful in a wise and orderly manner, so as to take advantage of the faculties already foreseen and to apply fully the pastoral norms in keeping with the spirit of the celebration.

In other words, while we do our best to reach out to other cultures (foreign, domestic, religious), we don’t break the rules.

1. The norm established by the Second Vatican Council, namely that in the liturgical renewal innovations should not be made unless required by true and certain usefulness to the Church, nor without exercising caution to ensure that new forms grow in some sense organically from forms already existing,[160] must also be applied to implementation of the inculturation of the Roman Rite as such.[161] Inculturation, moreover, requires a necessary length of time, lest the authentic liturgical tradition suffer hasty and incautious contamination.

Beautiful. Got nothing to add.

 

[PetraG]

In my experience, when the Vatican clarifies that a pope’s actions are not an edict, that’s a sign that the pope was behaving like Peter when Paul rightly rebuked him.

Actually, the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments answers questions about what is and is not liturgically required on a regular basis. I would not take the choice of that Congregation to clarify something to mean anything except that someone had questions.

The use of the word “edict” was mine; it was a decree issued on Jan. 6, 2016:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ds_doc_20160106_decreto-lavanda-piedi_en.html
It includes:
In performing this rite Bishops and priests are invited to intimately conform themselves to Christ who «came not to be served but to serve» (Mt 20:28) and, compelled by charity «to the end» (Jhn 13:1), to give his life for the salvation of the whole human race.

In order that the full meaning of this rite might be expressed to those who participate it seemed good to the Supreme Pontiff Pope Francis to vary the norm which is found in the rubrics of the Missale Romanum (p. 300 n. 11): «The men who have been chosen are led by the ministers…», which therefore must be changed as follows: «Those who are chosen from amongst the people of God are led by the ministers…» (and consequently in the Caeremoniali Episcoporum n. 301 and n. 299b: «seats for those chosen»), so that pastors may select a small group of the faithful to represent the variety and the unity of each part of the people of God. Such small groups can be made up of men and women, and it is appropriate that they consist of people young and old, healthy and sick, clerics, consecrated men and women and laity.

So–some immediately asked the Congregation if “Such small groups can be made up of men and women, and it is appropriate that they consist of people young and old, healthy and sick, clerics, consecrated men and women and laity” means that the group chosen must be made up of both men and women. The answer was that pastors have the option of reading their circumstances and a) including women or b) follow the practice of washing the feet of men only or c) omitting the ritual altogether. This clarification was issued on Jan 22, about two weeks after the decree:
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/vatican-congregation-pastors-free-to-avoid-foot-washing

Pope Francis’ example of washing the feet of the particularly poor or the imprisoned–rather than a diverse group–was not an utter innovation, either, but rather harkens back to the custom of the 1600 Ceremonial of Bishops, which mandated that the bishop wash, dry and kiss the feet of a group of the poor “after having dressed them, fed them and given them a charitable donation.”

These things change. The Pope is allowed to change them. No matter how they are or who is Pope, somebody doesn’t like it. That is life in this vale of tears.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

OH, like those in the Oregon Press Missal and Hymnal

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And who are they that we should listen to them instead of the USCCB ?

Jim

 

[EmmaSowl]

These things change.

They do. Altar servers have changed. That’s for sure. I must look far and wide to find a boy who serves at altar. And that’s kosher.

Maybe feet washing has changed. Since feet washing isn’t ordination, it’s possible.

But I do not see ordination changing. JP2’s encyclical on the subject passes every infallible test I’ve been taught. And he said, “Sorry, but no.” (not a direct quote ).

But none of these extras explains why liturgical music in my diocese moves increasingly toward performance over participation and paid musicians over the faithful singing.

 

[PetraG]

OH, like those in the Oregon Press Missal and Hymnal

Jim

The Archbishop of Portland in Oregon is (and always has been) the ex officio Chair and Publisher-in-Chief of the Oregon Catholic Press Board of Directors. Right now, that is Archbishop Alexander Sample, the author of the pastoral letter on sacred music in Divine Worship “Sing the Lord a New Song.”
https://d2wldr9tsuuj1b.cloudfront.net/12494/documents/2019/1/Sing to the Lord a New Song.pdf

The Pastoral Letter and OCP: Answers to Common Questions

On January 25, 2019, the feast of the Conversion of Saint Paul, Archbishop Alexander Sample released a Pastoral Letter on Sacred Music in Divine Worship titled

www.ocp.org

As they point out, “Keep in mind that OCP publishes music for the Universal Church, for use not only in the most holy sacrifice of the Mass, but also in prayer services, Liturgy of the Hours, Bible studies, youth ministry events, praise and worship events, retreats, school events, penance services, and any occasion in which Catholic communities use music to accompany the many and varied moments of parish life.”

I do not know of any instances in which OCP missals did not conform to the GIRM.

 

[EmmaSowl]

And who are they that we should listen to them instead of the USCCB ?

I don’t know. You didn’t give me a quote. I’m all for obeying the USCCB when it is in union with Rome.

 

[EmmaSowl]

OH, like those in the Oregon Press Missal and Hymnal

Seriously, if you don’t quote what you’re replying to, how can I answer?

 

[PetraG]

But none of these extras explains why liturgical music in my diocese moves increasingly toward performance over participation and paid musicians over the faithful singing.

Paying musicians is not a liturgical abuse, lol.

And no, the Roman Catholic Church is never going to ordain women. It is not going to happen. There are some Catholics who could be made to write it on the blackboard 1,000 times who still wouldn’t believe it, but so it is. Ordination of women is not one of those things that are going to change.

As for “performance,” I honestly think some of that bleeds over from the non-denominational churches. With as many churches as the Protestants have, someone is surely out there doing something “cool,” and with as many mixed marriages as there are, word gets around, and sometimes the local Catholic pastor allows these things to seep in (for whatever reason).

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

And who are they that we should listen to them instead of the USCCB ?

Jim

Do you imagine that those questions and answers disagree with the USCCB? Every answer quotes the popes and many quote the documents of Vatican II. In case you didn’t read it.

 

[PetraG]

Seriously, if you don’t quote what you’re replying to, how can I answer?

He may mean the OCP publishes music that isn’t suitable for Mass. OCP’s response is that parishes do singing outside of Mass and their missals are intended to provide music for the range of gatherings that a parish has, not just for the Mass. This allows parishes to buy one set of music books for everything. Unfortunately, OCP doesn’t presume to tell parishes which pieces are suitable for Mass and which are not. This may be where the impression comes in that everything in OCP’s books are examples of music the Archbishop of Portland in Oregon would deem appropriate for Mass. (I can’t think of a piece in OCP books that I’d say is not appropriate, because our parish only sings a fraction of them. I ignore most of them.)

 

[EmmaSowl]

As they point out, “ Keep in mind that OCP publishes music for the Universal Church, for use not only in the most holy sacrifice of the Mass, but also in prayer services, Liturgy of the Hours, Bible studies, youth ministry events, praise and worship events, retreats, school events, penance services, and any occasion in which Catholic communities use music to accompany the many and varied moments of parish life. ”

First of all, I miss the OCP Hymnal. It is not used in my parish. Mostly we are given Youth Songs with no hymnal - often just words on screens which are pulled down and hide the statues of the Holy Parents.

Second, this phrase: “for use not only in the most holy sacrifice of the Mass, but also in…” leads me to believe that not every song in an OCP Hymnal is meant for Mass.

Again and again and again - I don’t CARE what is sung as long as it is approved. It’s not about preference.

 

[EmmaSowl]

Paying musicians is not a liturgical abuse, lol.

Unless they’re being paid to sing in a manner that prevents the faithful from participating.

 

[PetraG]

First of all, I miss the OCP Hymnal. It is not used in my parish. Mostly we are given Youth Songs with no hymnal - often just words on screens which are pulled down and hide the statues of the Holy Parents.

We had OCP hymnals at my last parish and sometimes we still got songs with the lyrics projected on a screen with no music to read. I hated that. (My present parish does not seem to do that.) The songs are as often as not pieces picked up at a youth rally or something that came with Vacation Bible School that the kids really liked or something else that might be OK for a children’s Mass (I guess). I don’t know if those were run past the pastor or not. Sometimes, based on the look on his face, I thought probably not. (There are downsides to having musicians who aren’t professionals on the parish payroll.)

Unless they’re being paid to sing in a manner that prevents the faithful from participating.

That is presumably on their boss, which is to say the pastor. If the musicians are popular with many and upsetting relatively few, that tends to be a bee hive that some pastors won’t stir up, though, even if they agree with the few who feel they are suffering. I suppose priests have to choose their battles; I do not envy pastors and all of the decisions they have to make.

 

[EmmaSowl]

He may mean the OCP publishes music that isn’t suitable for Mass.

Lol, we got to the same point while posting at the same time.