The Power of Music

[EmmaSowl]

I don’t know if those were run past the pastor or not. Sometimes, based on the look on his face, I thought probably not.

I’ve seen that pastor look! I’ve also seen a bishop look (sort of wtf) when he had to stand aimlessly at the altar for an extra verse and refrain after he’d processed because the choir director wanted to show off his chops rather than flow with the liturgical action.

(There are downsides to having musicians who aren’t professionals on the parish payroll.)

Oh, man, we were agreeing and now we disagree. Other than the choir director, I cannot see a reason for any other singer to get a salary. There are plenty of competent singers. Professional singers, in my experience, want to show the parish how lucky it is to be blessed with listening, rather than sing in a simple way that helps the faithful join in.

I’ve dropped to my knees at Mass, begging God for mercy, when a professional singer screeched diva-like across the scales during the responsorial psalm rather than help the faithful in sung prayer.

That is presumably on their boss, which is to say the pastor.

Yes. The pastor. I find that pastors are unwilling to listen to anyone who objects to anything liturgical. Every single pastor I’ve had (5 in 26 years) defers to his liturgical director over the faithful. I do not know why - especially since the DL’s are increasingly expensive employees and the more expensive they are, the emptier the pews get.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

That’s one of the questions in liturgical music – is it just to accompany action and movement during the liturgy, or does it deserve time for its own sake? What is the purpose of hymnody in the Roman rite?
https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum...rpose-of-hymnody-in-the-roman-rite-mass-of/p1

 

[PetraG]

…I’ve also seen a bishop look (sort of wtf) when he had to stand aimlessly at the altar for an extra verse and refrain after he’d processed because the choir director wanted to show off his chops rather than flow with the liturgical action.

You remind me of a joke a priest told me. Liturgically loose parish, the bishop is coming, the pastor wants it toned down for that Sunday, but some headstrong parishioner decides that, yes, she is going to do her liturgical dance to complement the processional!! As she danced, the bishop leaned over to the pastor and said, “If she asks for your head on a platter, I’m giving it to her.”

Oh, man, we were agreeing and now we disagree. Other than the choir director, I cannot see a reason for any other singer to get a salary.

Yes, most parishes can get by with one professional musician who serves as the director of sacred music. I thought you were implying a parish could get by with less!!

Yes. The pastor. I find that pastors are unwilling to listen to anyone who objects to anything liturgical. Every single pastor I’ve had (5 in 26 years) defers to his liturgical director over the faithful. I do not know why - especially since the DL’s are increasingly expensive employees and the more expensive they are, the emptier the pews get.

I’ve been lucky, because I have not seen that. The pastors make changes more slowly than those who object to the status quo might like, but they have all known where the liturgical buck stops. It isn’t with anyone else who has a future on their staff.

That’s one of the questions in liturgical music – is it just to accompany action and movement during the liturgy, or does it deserve time for its own sake? What is the purpose of hymnody in the Roman rite?
What is the purpose of hymnody in the Roman Rite Mass (OF)? - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum

"Questions concerning the place of music in divine worship can be traced back to the earliest days of the Church…Since the psalms, part of Sacred Scripture, were meant to be sung, music was seen, ultimately, to be part of the very integrity of the Word of God. Furthermore, since Christian worship was moored to the Sacred Scriptures, music was seen as necessarily worthy of being preserved and fostered in the public worship of the Church.

“Therefore, in the tradition of all the Apostolic Churches, sacred music has been considered integral to the Sacred Liturgy. This means that the music proper to the Mass is not merely an addendum to worship, i.e. something external added on to the form and structure of the Mass. Rather, sacred music is an essential element of worship itself. It is an art form which takes its life and purpose from the Sacred Liturgy and is part of its very structure.” --Archbishop Alexander Sample, “Sing to the Lord a New Song”

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Yes, we are supposed to “sing the Mass”, rather than just sing “at Mass”. I believe Archbishop Sample is referring to the propers and ordinary of the Mass, he’s making the point that hymns are not an integral part of the Mass the way the actual texts are. Too bad all that stuff is usually left out and replaced with St. Louis “Jesuits” stuff!

 

[Peeps]

I’ve scanned this thread with interest, as I regularly substitute as pianist/organist in Catholic parishes, including my own, and I also continue to play for Protestant churches who hire me.

I think that church musicians have to be really careful not to prepare and present their music with a spirit of “Hah! I’m going to finally give this church some GOOD music!”

I don’t care what kind of music it is–classical, chant, sacred polyphony, Bach, traditional hymns, contemporary, rock, gospel, Southern Gospel, or silence–we should not present it with the thought that we are finally giving a church really GOOD music instead what they usually have.

We have to be subject to the authority of the church, be it Catholic or Protestant. If they say, “Play/sing whatever you like! We trust you!” then go ahead and give them your best. But if the pastor says, “We really don’t want chant here,” or “we would prefer traditional rather than contemporary,” then we need to submit to their authority.

Just my advice after over 50 years of involvement with church music Protestant and Catholic. Take it or leave it, but musicians will be happier, and so will their churches, if they take it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Not disagree, but not realistic in most Catholic parishes today.

Few music leaders are trained in Gregorian Chant and few have the desire to be trained.

The result is that most music leaders, are guitar players and signers as I was and we use the latest religious music of the time. For me, it was the St Louis Jesuits, John Michael Talbot, Michael Card and others.

Also, the music used, has to be at a level where the congregation can sing along and be part of it. Like it was said, it’s not entertainment.

My little parish, our Mass was packed and the people sang out like Protestants, and the singing could be hear out on the street. Perhaps it brought new people in, but I can’t say.

Anyway, I like all music including Gregorian Chant.

But we have to keep in mind who the music leaders in the parish are, and the people of that parish. Should we have music which isolates them ? No, of course not.

Teaching new music to a congregation is a daunting task, and trust me, you’ll only have about 10 minutes before Mass starts.

Jim

 

[pnewton]

Other than Oregon Catholic Press, is there another that is approved by some bishop? The idea of bishop approved music is not relevant in my diocese. He does not have an approved list.

 

[pnewton]

Consider whether being correct in all matters of liturgy, as one personally understands it, is as important as other matters of charity:

“To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right handand walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds,your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

 

[snarflemike]

Consider whether being correct in all matters of liturgy, as one personally understands it, is as important as other matters of charity:

Why must these be in opposition? Why is it not an act of charity, an act of love, to try and give people the best, most worthy liturgical celebrations possible? If the Church asks that the people be given an egg, is it charitable to give them a scorpion?

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Oh dear – the problem might be here: “Few (music leaders) have the desire to be trained in Gregorian chant”.
Yeah, why would Catholic music leaders want to learn the normative liturgical music of their own Church?! Bring on the bongos and guitars.

 

[snarflemike]

Exactly. Rejection of chant either comes from ignorance (inexcusable in a Church music leader), or outright hostility (even more inexcusable).

 

[PetraG]

Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

Archbishop Sample’s point is that there are aspects of reverence that have been lost at times. He is careful not to denigrate work done by musicians of the past 50 years, but points out that in spite of their hard work and good intentions that some music used at Masses has drifted into what Pope Francis described this way: “At times a certain mediocrity, superficiality and banality have prevailed, to the detriment of the beauty and intensity of liturgical celebrations.” adding at the end of his remarks: "I encourage you not to lose sight of this important objective: to help the People of God to perceive and participate, with all the senses, physical and spiritual, in God’s mystery. Sacred music and liturgical chant have the task of giving us a sense of the glory of God, of his beauty, of his holiness which wraps us in a “luminous cloud”. (Address to participants of the International Conference on Sacred Music, Vatican City, 4 March 2017;
http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...francesco_20170304_convegno-musica-sacra.html

 

[pnewton]

They do not have to be, and shouldn’t be. But they can be. I will not give examples as the posts here can be judged on their own.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Because they have families and jobs. Music ministry is a part time thing, they don’t need to add schooling on top of that.

But then, there are few colleges teaching it anyway, especially after hours

Jim

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I’m not talking about a 4-year degree. How long does it take to learn a more reverent version of a Mass setting? How hard is it to learn the chanted “Our Father” setting? A big issue is that priests don’t lead the way by chanting their parts…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It depends on what you’re learning

However, just because the minster of music learns a particular style, he/she then has to teach the congregation, which is a challenge.

BTW, unless you’re in the music ministry, it’s not up to you what style they play

Jim

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Wouldn’t you agree that it is the priest who decides what style? If he doesn’t like it, or think it is what the Church calls for, he’s really the only one with the authority to change it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Bishops provide the approved liturgical text that the priest may use

The priest can’t force people to volunteer themselves for the music ministry and as my pastors have shown, they’re grateful for those who do.

As long as the music is from approved text and the congregation can sing along, they’re not going to force something the music ministers are not experienced with.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Like I said earlier.

If you don’t like the style of music played at the Mass in your parish, learn how to play what you like then volunteer to lead the music ministry.

Meanwhile, stop complaining, it’s unchristian and makes people feel bad

Jim

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

If music ministers are purposefully hostile to the true liturgical music of the Catholic Church, maybe they should examine if there’s something they could be doing differently.

A rising tide of liturgical education lifts all boats, don’t you think?