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pnewton
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No, but that is not the issue. The bishop has authority over implementation of the GIRM.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
Gonna quote two movies for my response:
Casablanca: “I’m shocked, shocked…” that you’ve never heard any.
Life of Brian: “You lucky, lucky b…” (I’ll say “broad”).
Our choir does a song with a refrain “God’s time is here, God’s time is here…” where they start “just a little bit lower here” and go “just a little bit higher here” like that scene from Animal House. I’m waiting for the jazz hands and rockette kicks.
Nearly any song by John Angotti would qualify, imho.
Then there are the professional guest cantors who screech the responsorial psalm with vocal gymnastics similar to those in JC Superstar.
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Loud-living-dogma
Guest
Honestly I have gone to FSSP and I think I have worn pants. Not every woman there wears a dress, I’m pretty sure. I’m actually surprised because I have seen people in a range of clothes – everything from a formal man’s suit to jeans and a t-shirt. And a surprising number of guys who have a ponytail. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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EmmaSowl
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Depending on the Mass, we get all four - but #1 is definitely in the minority.
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snarflemike
Guest
The Invasion of the Old Youngsters. Let it go, people, let it go.
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snarflemike
Guest
Can I get an A-MEN!And a surprising number of guys who have a ponytail.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
It is not good that he left, but I understand his feelings. I had a few hours (after a depressing meeting with a pastor) where I considered simply watching EWTN Masses and fulfilling my Easter obligation to avoid the emotional turmoil my current parish Mass music inflicts on me. But I came to my senses. After being blessed with consuming Our Lord daily for over a decade, I realized I could not be parted from Him.
But those who do not, deep down, recognize the pearl of great price at Mass are clearly leaving. Should we mock them or should we lament that those in charge did not properly catechize them? If one does not fully believe that he is receiving God Himself on the tongue, can he be blamed for deciding that a Pep Rally Mass does nothing that helps him spiritually?
I believe that apologetics and liturgical obedience go hand and hand. Since my diocese loathes both, the pews are emptying at an alarming rate.
I don’t know either, but I think there’s a chance.
Ack, LLD, we hit our first disagreement. When I read the GIRM, I see loads of references to music being the sung prayer of the faithful. I’m too tired to look them up now, but I promise I will provide them in my next CAF session if you ask me.
In fact, one of my main complaints is that the music we are being force-fed at Mass is unsingable for the Average Joe.
I remember my Godmother complaining that it was impossible to find the melody at Mass because of all the parts. At the time, I scoffed because I was in music ministry and isolated from the pew experience. Shame on me. Now that I’ve had a decade in the pews, I understand the frustration of having to stand aimlessly while listening to a song you hate and can’t sing sung badly by a choir that goes on and on and on after the liturgical action.
At today’s Mass, there were no instruments. Just three people singing in parts. The choir director, who cantored, chose to sing the alto line from the microphone. Seriously, how is that helpful to the faithful? It makes one wonder how many musicians sing for love of God and brother and how many simply view their brothers as a captive audience.
Yippie, agreeing again! In fact, I would go further and say that chant is the easiest music in the world to sing.
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EmmaSowl
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This is my entire position. God bless you.
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EmmaSowl
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I have written MANY posts. If you don’t quote me, I do not know what you are commenting on and am, therefore, at a loss to respond.
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Peeps
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I would be willing to bet that those who are leaving for a different church are heading to the closest “megachurch” that features a professional rock/pop band and not for a church that features a pipe organ and classical music/chant.
Or they’re just staying home, and that should concern all of us, since to give up Jesus for a song…that’s really sad.
I think people should examine their hearts and go to God to ask for His help when they have such hatred of the music in their parish. If there’s a parish with an option that is more pleasing to them, then by all means, they should go there and enjoy. However, if there is no option, then…somehow they have to make peace with the music. It’s not good to be so filled with misery all the time, and it’s not good to spread this type of negative attitude around.
I’ve found that the majority of people in my parish love the music. Our Masses feature a mix of hymns, usually two traditional and two “contemporary” (50 year old St. Jesuit’s hymns). The Mass is usually one of the vernacular Masses; right now they’re doing Mass of Wisdom, which is comfortable. They do a “Gregorian chant” style" Sanctus (in English).
The music director at our parish has tried several times to have Latin chants in the Mass (Sanctus and Agnus Dei), and the people try their best to do them, but many people just stand there looking confused. I had a very hard time trying to do the Sanctus because I couldn’t remember the words without picking up the hymnal (an overhead would have been great). If I had a hard time, and I am well-educated in music and have some vocal chops, I know others struggled. Each time we’ve tried the chant, it lasts for a few months, and then it’s gone.
Sorry folks. I hope you have success in your parishes getting the music you love established.
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EmmaSowl
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Actually, I gotta admit that a parishioner from the parish came to my work, and in talking, she said that women did not have to wear dresses. (And veils are provided at the door).
The very small (it’s a house) parish has a great evangelical spirit. It is across the street from where I work and, ever since the day I waved at those opening up as I drove into my work parking lot, three different people have come to my workplace to enlighten me about the parish.
After the chaos of my job’s summer season (ends Labor Day), I will go.
What has deterred me is the drive on one of my few off days. If I don’t hafta leave my house (or community) on my day off, I don’t wanna. (I think I have Howard Hughes syndrome). But I really, really, really want to experience a Latin Mass at least once.
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pnewton
Guest
As other denominations are losing members at a greeter rate, it seems dubious blaming music.
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Peeps
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Wow, I’ve never heard of any these. I looked up John Angotti, and I couldn’t find anything original, just a list of songs that he’s recorded. It doesn’t sound like he’s a Catholic, although we have plenty of hymns in our Catholic hymnal that were written by Protestants.
Do you live in a city that has a lot of theaters, music studios, etc.? Or a university or college with a well-known theater department?
Why do you have professional guest cantors? Are there not enough parishioners who step up to cantor? Or do the pros attract more people to the parish?
We have a professional actress in our parish who cantors, but she has a lovely voice. I can tell that she has done a lot of stage singing, but I don’t think most of the people in the congregation have any idea that she does most of her singing on a stage in a costume. She adapts her voice for the liturgy.
I can play great show accompaniments, but I don’t play like that in Mass.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
What was the problem with the alto?
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EmmaSowl
Guest
It’s not what’s in the hymnal and, therefore, is extremely confusing to the faithful if it is presented as the only microphone-emphasized notes. The people do not know what to do, so they just stand there.
(They did start joining in when, from the back, I loudly sang the melody - after all, they vaguely know the melody, but did not know the alto line at all).
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EmmaSowl
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That’s probably true, but I doubt if they’re going for the music or participating in it (the few Protestant services I’ve attended seem to accept music as performance). My guess is that they’re going because the sermons have some meat - and (they think) some meat is better than homilies with no meat at all.
Again, none of this would be an issue if the leavers recognized the reality of Holy Communion. The fact that they do not reflects on their deficient Catholic education.
I, unfortunately, think this is the main response.
Those of us who hate the music but stay do our best to make peace. We cannot help it if our souls cry out in pain, but we find a way to live with it. Some of us try to find ways to inspire obedience so that the exodus will stop.
Did you do a poll? Did it include those who have left?
This is foreign to my experience. I find the Agnus Dei to be one of the few songs where the faithful can be heard over the choir. The Sanctus is not sung as fully, but then, it’s only attempted about once every five years, so people forget.
I survive Mass by keeping the missal and hymnals in my hand. Is there a reason not to use them?
As long as it supplies the notes and doesn’t hide the statues of Mary and Joseph. But what’s wrong with using a hymnal or missal? Seriously?
And yet, in the six parishes I’ve belonged to, the songs the faithful sing loudest are the old chants. Maybe those well-educated in music should humbly look to the wisdom of what the people in the pews are able to do.
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EmmaSowl
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In other words, popular music doesn’t keep people in the pews in any denomination.
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pnewton
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That is not a good paraphrase. I would rather say that some of the causation that is being assumed is not well supported.
I do not know if any music can be said to keep people in the pews.
I do not know if any music can be said to keep people in the pews.
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EmmaSowl
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I don’t know if he’s Catholic, but his “I”-laden songs are all over our youth song books: “I did this and I felt that then God then I, I, I…”
And he tried out his extravaganza, “Job: The Now Testament” at our church. He cleverly roped in a dozen kids from the parish to play small parts, ensuring ticket buying by parents and grandparents.
After 15 minutes of listening to screeching, quite a few of the grandparents (plus, a priest) left.
After 30 minutes, I spent most of my time in the parking lot where I could still hear but didn’t have to watch the chaos in the sanctuary (the sanctuary - when there is a perfectly good stage in the auditorium). Plus, I desperately needed a smoke.
I would’ve just left, but upon reading the program I saw two names (one cantored my wedding!) from the old days, and I wanted to say hi.
So, I witnessed the finale - which was a moment of clarity for me. I’ll explain why if asked.
I live in LA. That should tell you a lot.
We used to have a choir director. Now we have a Director of Liturgy who (rumor says - and why we don’t know for certain is a crime) is paid six figures because he used to be the DL at a parish with a lot of Hollywood types. (And we all know how faithful Catholic Hollywood types are).
With his connections, the DL brings in professionals to guest.
By demand of the faithful at my Mission Mass, I was a fill-in cantor. When I went to the pastor to request more than 5 minutes warning before cantoring, he referred me to the DL who 86ed me.
Our Mass attendance (and collections) have plummeted since we went pro.
God bless her.
God bless you, too.
I can also sing with some frills, but at Mass, I keep it as plain as possible to assist the faithful.
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EmmaSowl
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Let’s say you’re right. Let’s say music (of any kind) has nothing to do with whether or not people leave any denomination.
Does it then follow that our music should disobey the bishops in union with Rome?
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