The Power of Music

[snarflemike]

As other denominations are losing members at a greeter rate, it seems dubious blaming music.

"Membership Decline Steeper Among Catholics"​

U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades

The percentage of U.S. adults who belong to a church or other religious institution has fallen 20 percentage points within the past two decades.

news.gallup.com

 

[snarflemike]

I do not know if any music can be said to keep people in the pews.

In my case, it did even more. It brought me back, after decades away.

 

[pnewton]

If music is why people go to Mass, a CD would suffice.

 

[pnewton]

When I can I will link a different survey that contradicts that one. I have to find it.

 

[pnewton]

pnewton:

That is not a good paraphrase. I would rather say that some of the causation that is being assumed is not well supported.

I do not know if any music can be said to keep people in the pews.

Let’s say you’re right. Let’s say music (of any kind) has nothing to do with whether or not people leave any denomination.

Does it then follow that our music should disobey the bishops in union with Rome?

No, but then I never saw this happen, as there is a lot of latitude given.

 

[EmmaSowl]

In my case, it did even more. It brought me back, after decades away.

While it did not bring me back, the few times I have experienced obedient music well sung have given me a taste of heaven I can still savor.

 

[EmmaSowl]

If music is why people go to Mass, a CD would suffice.

A CD will also suffice for all those who like styles which are not promoted in the GIRM. Those styles need not be forced on the faithful in defiance of the bishops in union with Rome.

I can’t say it enough times: it’s not about preference but obedience.

 

[EmmaSowl]

there is a lot of latitude given.

According to whom?

 

[snarflemike]

If music is why people go to Mass, a CD would suffice.

It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s a straw man!

 

[snarflemike]

Here is another fascinating sentence from Sacrosanctum Concilium.

“Therefore sacred music is to be considered the more holy in proportion as it is more closely connected with the liturgical action, whether it adds delight to prayer, fosters unity of minds, or confers greater solemnity upon the sacred rites.” SC 112

In particular, sacred music is to be considered more holy when it “adds delight to prayer”. This is a remarkable statement. Next Sunday, ask yourself if the music in your parish adds delight to prayer.

 

[Peeps]

This is foreign to my experience. I find the Agnus Dei to be one of the few songs where the faithful can be heard over the choir. The Sanctus is not sung as fully, but then, it’s only attempted about once every five years, so people forget.

Our choir only sings at two Masses (a traditional choir and a folk choir, but both are around a dozen people–fairly small choir). So they aren’t drowning anyone out.

And yet, in the six parishes I’ve belonged to, the songs the faithful sing loudest are the old chants. Maybe those well-educated in music should humbly look to the wisdom of what the people in the pews are able to do.

I’ve described in an earlier post the very poor state of music education in both our public and private/parochial schools in our city.

Earlier I mentioned that the people don’t sing the chant.

Also, I described earlier the very close proximity of Willow Creek Community Church to our city. Willow Creek features professionally-done contemporary Christian music (not 50 year -old folk songs), and it attracts around 20,000 (twenty thousand–not a misprint) “seekers” every Sunday. The “members” are not supposed to attend on Sunday, but attend weekday services scheduled every day and evening.

This church has influenced many of the bigger Protestant churches in our city, which feature well-done contemporary Christian music (not “boomer rock” performed by people over 50)! The bands and musicians are paid, and they play for a substantial portion of the worship service.

Even though someone who doesn’t like contemporary or rock music can’t comprehend it, these churches attract a lot of people who love the music. I agree with you that the sermons are often meatier–and they last at least a half-hour, often more. None of this “5 minute homily” business. Good gracious, the tiny Protestant church that I provide music for (for pay) has a pastor who speaks for at least 20 minutes, and often 30 minutes! I think that although Catholics insist that a homily should be short, many really enjoy a longer sermon if it is relevant to their lives where they are right now (not just a description of a saint who lived a thousand years ago and died of TB at age 22).

 

[Peeps]

. Some of us try to find ways to inspire obedience so that the exodus will stop.

EmmaSowl, I’m not sure if this is really a good way to approach this. “Obedience” sounds rather punitive. There is no requirement in the GIRM for a certain style of Mass music, and even though Gregorian chant is supposed to be done–if the people can’t sing it, it can’t be done! The old saying is true–you can’t get blood out of a stone!

I think a better approach would be to “woo” the people. Look around and find a professional schola, or an amateur schola that is willing to sing at other parishes for the sake of edification and education. Work with your priest(s) to bring them to your parish for all the Masses (not just the “traditional” Mass). If possible, see if the schola could also offer a “workshop” for all interested in learning more about chant. AND MOST IMPORTANT–offer to PAY for all of this!!

If the schola provides beautiful chant and a good workshop, some people are bound to ask if the chant can be continued at your parish. Of course, if they don’t ask, and if there is still a lack of interest…well, then you might want to re-think things a little. Butting your head against a solid wall will not break the wall, and will only result in a severe headache for you.

Just in case you’re wondering, I am 62 years old, so I’m not a upstart young person who thinks I know it all. i don’t know it all! But I know that the word “obedience” does not go over well with people who know that they ARE obeying the rubrics.

 

[Peeps]

In other words, popular music doesn’t keep people in the pews in any denomination.

I would strongly disagree with this. Churches would not spend a large portion of their budget on music if this were true.

I agree that “contemporary” music doesn’t keep people in the pews. Many Protestant churches put together a “Praise and Worship Band” (P and W) consisting of middle-aged people who are still longing for the 60s (Randy Stonehill and Larry Norman), or 70-s (Evie Tournquist, the Gaithers), the 80s (Amy Grant, Keith Green, 2nd Chapter of Acts–this is MY music, BTW!!!), and maybe a little of the 90s (??).

The people who are in the band are older, and they play and sing “old.”, and it definitely does NOT go over with younger people, or even older people! They generally aren’t professional musicians, although they may have been in a pro band when they were younger.

Nope, the churches that are drawing hundreds and even thousands feature a professional contemporary band that has up-to-date technology, and makes use of video as well as sound. This kind of music DOES keep people in the pews!

Catholics might consider this a “performance.” Please don’t keep thinking that way. To Protestants, it is WORSHIP, comparable to what is described in Psalm 150.

Some of these big Protestant churches also feature a live orchestra, and sing beautiful orchestral arrangements of various hymns, beautiful hymns like “How Great Thou Art” and contemporary hymns (older) like “How Beautiful.” This kind of music attracts all of the people who don’t really like contemporary Christian music (CCM).

So please don’t kid yourself–these churches are NOT losing members, but gaining hundreds ever week.

It’s the MAINLINE Protestant churches and some of the Evangelical Protestant churches that haven’t been able to keep up with the churches that I described in the previous paragraphs who are losing members.

Also, many of the Evangelical Protestant churches are experiencing a lack of conversions, and this might be what you are calling a “loss of members.” This is heartbreaking for Evangelical Protestant churches, who aren’t really interested in attracting people away from their own churches, but want very much to preach the Gospel to those who have never heard about Jesus, and see the Holy Spirit work to convict these people of their need of Jesus Christ. This just isn’t happening anymore. People in the U.S. are NOT converting to Christianity, but instead, are dissing church of any kind altogether, even if Lady Gaga were the guest musician! People just aren’t interested in “church.”

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Sadly, I think that there are people who are trying to destroy the Church from within.
Do you ever see anything that makes you think that?
Is it possible that some of these people are involved in music, in high places, or low places?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The number of replies you’ve posted and the fact that Norton flags your notifications in my email as spam, I’m guessing you’re a troll.

I’m not taking your bait

Jim

 

[snarflemike]

The “Norton Defense”.

 

[EmmaSowl]

The number of replies you’ve posted and the fact that Norton flags your notifications in my email as spam, I’m guessing you’re a troll.

I’m not taking your bait

Let me get this straight. Even though in my last (removed) thread I gave my real name, explained that I used to regularly volunteer for Catholic Answers, and mentioned that my conversion story was published in This Rock (the former name of Catholic Answers Magazine - btw, the Damascus Road article was titled “The Real Thing” if you wanna check my bona fides), you have determined that I am a troll because, once a week or so, I reply to the many comments in the large thread that I started and am passionate about.

Your stance is simply more evidence that a fair amount of shunning is going on in the Church.

I’ve said it before: many of those who trumpet “the voice of people” in the Church seem to behave as if they really mean “the voice of the Right People” (i.e., the voice which agrees with them over the published words of the bishops in union with Rome).

 

[dochawk]

Ah, but St Augustine, I believe was the one who said “he who sings, prays twice”.

Most of the translations I see have sings well, not simply singing.

I’m part of the group that prays a third time by sinning softly enough to not pull others off key . . .:crazy_face:

More seriously, as near to tone-deaf as I am, I have attended countless Masses in which even I could tell that the pianist (or organist, or guitar player, or . . .) and the singer were fighting for control of the tune, and not agreeing on the notes (I can’t tell a B from an E, but I can pick out the higher and lower, and can also recognize harmony . . .).

In all seriousness, anyone who hasn’t been to many RC Masses over the years in which the musical performers weren’t making the victims, err, congregation, suffer has been far more fortunate than I . . .

. I’m not talking about just tweaking the gender terms into neutral terms, I’m talking about a whole different song.

But some of those can be downright funny (while simultaneously painful). I’ve seen “rolling thunder” made “non-violent”. Or listing the Battle Hymn of the Republic by the first line, and so many more . . .

 

[EmmaSowl]

Our choir only sings at two Masses (a traditional choir and a folk choir, but both are around a dozen people–fairly small choir). So they aren’t drowning anyone out.

The garage band at our Mission Mass (when at full force) has 6 singers. It’s not that they drown out, it’s that maybe 5% of those in the pews are able to sing along - the songs are too high, too fast, and sometimes the notes aren’t even given even though the song is new. On the technical side, the harmonies are so badly blended and the melody sung so off key that no layman who doesn’t routinely listen to such songs on the radio (or CD ;p) could possibly join in.

I usually sit in the back at the school lunch benches where only one woman other than me attempts to sing - the rest stand in fidgety silence.

When I lector, I sit in the front-row folding chairs and, while there is more singing in that area, it is still sparse (and very soft) and is accompanied by quite a bit of whispered chatter which makes me long for the fidgety silence at the lunch benches.

But when there is chant…

Then the 50-100 Mass goers who might be there on any given Sunday completely fill the auditorium with their voices.

You say chant is difficult. I say chant is easy. We won’t get far going back and forth unless we start giving reasons.

I will expand on the reasons I gave very early in this thread (please understand that when I refer to chant, I refer exclusively to chant published in our missals over the last quarter century - I know nothing of chant beyond that):

The average parishioner does not comprehend meter, a repeat sign, a key designation, or even a note stem. It is a rare non-musician who knows a whole note from a quarter note. But one thing that can be grasped is whether the notes are going up or down.

Chant takes all the frills away. All the stuff that only helps the professionals is out of eyesight. The notes go up, they go down. Most of them are black.

(You may have read my very early post about how I respect Marty Haugen because he composes almost exclusively in quarter notes and he writes lyrics that match one syllable to one note - now that’s a composer who wants the faithful to sing!).

Plus, chant stays within a reasonable range. Any person with a voice in any register can pick an octave and hit all the notes.

Those are my reasons why the type of chant found in any parish missal is easy to sing. I will reflect upon your reasons why chant is difficult if you choose to post them.

I will ponder your reasons over the next week because I think I will take that long of a break from posting. I wish I could say it was because I recognize I’m neglecting my husband (which is true, but sadly not my motivation), but it is because, once again, a CAF thread mirrors my experience with parish authorities. It’s not fun to be called a Pharisee or a troll (I know you never said anything like that, but it pops up on these forums and I’m not always the Soldier for Christ I like to think I am - sometimes I just want a break from the insults).

Pray my poor, neglected husband profits from my pride!

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I’m sure you meant to write “sinning” instead of “singing”, right? :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
Yes – I annoyed my kids Sunday at the end of “For the beauty of the Earth” where the words had been changed from “this our sacrifice of praise” to “this our hymn of grateful praise”.
Oops – I kept singing the wrong words from habit…
Even Wikipedia knows the right words!

For the Beauty of the Earth - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org