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JButky
Guest
Complete agreement!
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P
pnewton
Guest
You have presented what might be the greatest challenge to musicians in the Church today. Performance is easy. Leadership is harder. That said, I noticed there are still some songs, like Amazing Grace, that almost everyone sings. It isn’t much to build on, I know.
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JButky
Guest
Leadership is easy, Changing the culture is not. I can remember two groups that I held membership in that sang at meetings. The first was my college music fraternity and we began every meeting and function with our fraternity song. (A four part hymn because hey we’re musician in community.) The other was a local rotary club that started their meeting with a prayer and their hymn. (non musicians in a community) How many people actually sing publicly in our culture as part of their group? I tried to get my local K of C guys to do a men’s choir just one Sunday a month or sing to begin a meeting. They refuse with all sorts of excuses.
We have a new Pastor as of this week. He would like the entrance antiphon sung at daily mass rather than just read and asked for a rotation of cantors willing to do it. I can’t even get a month’s rotation of cantors for regular Sunday Mass, and we have a lot of singers in the Nashville diocese! Typically a Pastor should be capable of leading this, or a deacon. OR if you have that person who is there every day who is capable then by all means. Unfortunately, I can’t even get our deacons to sing. I’ve offered to work with them, offered to work with priests and other religious who say they can’t sing who really only lack vocal courage, and yet for most of my life I am requested to sing the exsultet each year because no-one else is even willing.
Why is this? Why don’t we have a choir at this mass or that mass? People ask all the time and I tell them there’s a chair there for them if they would just join me, but no. If there is someone there who can do it well, they figure they don’t need to help out. No need, no offer to help.
So who is there? Well my youngest daughter and one of her friends are in my choir. I work with them to sing as cantor and are part of my choir. But realize that there is singing in my house and music, and a lot of it, and most of it live. How many other people have that daily influence infused into their lives?
Here’s some interesting questions… Is choir membership higher when there are no trained musicians to lead? Is there a necessity that draws people out of such a poverty? Does a present richness of musical talent lead people into complacency to just let talented people alone handle it?
—continued
We have a new Pastor as of this week. He would like the entrance antiphon sung at daily mass rather than just read and asked for a rotation of cantors willing to do it. I can’t even get a month’s rotation of cantors for regular Sunday Mass, and we have a lot of singers in the Nashville diocese! Typically a Pastor should be capable of leading this, or a deacon. OR if you have that person who is there every day who is capable then by all means. Unfortunately, I can’t even get our deacons to sing. I’ve offered to work with them, offered to work with priests and other religious who say they can’t sing who really only lack vocal courage, and yet for most of my life I am requested to sing the exsultet each year because no-one else is even willing.
Why is this? Why don’t we have a choir at this mass or that mass? People ask all the time and I tell them there’s a chair there for them if they would just join me, but no. If there is someone there who can do it well, they figure they don’t need to help out. No need, no offer to help.
So who is there? Well my youngest daughter and one of her friends are in my choir. I work with them to sing as cantor and are part of my choir. But realize that there is singing in my house and music, and a lot of it, and most of it live. How many other people have that daily influence infused into their lives?
Here’s some interesting questions… Is choir membership higher when there are no trained musicians to lead? Is there a necessity that draws people out of such a poverty? Does a present richness of musical talent lead people into complacency to just let talented people alone handle it?
—continued
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JButky
Guest
-Continued…
To me, these are all cultural influences that neither musical leadership nor talent alone cannot change. How do you breed a culture that is engaged towards a specific end? This is a larger problem that is central to this discussion in my estimation. Where are the communities of singing cultures to inspire others to form their own? And specifically Catholic ones?
Sorry this has turned into a rant but, those of us who do this week in and week out are tired. We appreciate the admiration that others have for us in our talent and abilities and yet we are saddened with some of those same people that refuse to even try. When I can’t be there and can’t find a sub, then there is nothing. There’s not even one with the courage to step up and try. I understand we each have special talents and gifts but there must be so much hidden ability that goes unrecognized with an unwillingness to even try and cultivate.
It’s really sad… and here we are…
To me, these are all cultural influences that neither musical leadership nor talent alone cannot change. How do you breed a culture that is engaged towards a specific end? This is a larger problem that is central to this discussion in my estimation. Where are the communities of singing cultures to inspire others to form their own? And specifically Catholic ones?
Sorry this has turned into a rant but, those of us who do this week in and week out are tired. We appreciate the admiration that others have for us in our talent and abilities and yet we are saddened with some of those same people that refuse to even try. When I can’t be there and can’t find a sub, then there is nothing. There’s not even one with the courage to step up and try. I understand we each have special talents and gifts but there must be so much hidden ability that goes unrecognized with an unwillingness to even try and cultivate.
It’s really sad… and here we are…
L
Loud-living-dogma
Guest
If only we had Catholic schools, where a real authentic Catholic culture could perhaps be revived…oh wait! We do have that! Too bad they are not given proper musical training…
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Peeps
Guest
Our city has at least two excellent Catholic schools, one of which is done by those who favor “traditional” Catholicism and who mainly attend the Latin Mass parish.
The other really good Catholic school is in a “well-off” (what the heck, I’ll just come out and say it–wealthy!) neighborhood.
Both of these schools have wonderful music programs led by qualified teachers. I have accompanied at both schools and have admired the skills of the teachers.
Our Catholic high schools (we have two) have amazing musical education, and the musicals presented by the older school at one time were labeled as “semi-professional theater” by our local music critics. At least a dozen well-known Broadway stars and several Hollywood stars are graduates of this school.
But…for whatever reason, once the kids graduate and become contributing adults in our community, they stop singing. It’s just as JButky describes.
Our kids sing willingly in church, at least when they go. My older daughter is currently not attending Mass because she got too discouraged when no one attempted to talk to her or include her in parish life, and my young daughter does not attend any church because of the horrific events that occurred in the last Protestant church that we were involved with before leaving as a family. (Our whole family stopped going to church for a year after this event.)
But when she lived in California, my older daughter was a cantor in her parish, and she cantored for a while in her NYC parish. And my younger daughter will happily sing solos and lead the singing in our church, and in the Protestant churches where I play.
I think the answer is not just “good education in the schools,” but a HOME and family culture that includes home-made music–family sing-alongs, private music lessons/recitals, children and parents working ogether on musical numbers, attending concerts of all styles of music as a FAMILY, and of course, an acceptance and LOVE of many different musical styles rather than “allowing” or “tolerating” only certain types of music in the home/family life.
I also think that when children are raised to think of “church music” as an act of service rather than an “entertainment,” and when they are trained to use their singing voice properly, they will be more willing to volunteer to sing. No one wants to sing when they don’t really know how to sing properly and/or when it hurts to sing a full range of pitches, and no one wants to “entertain” when they aren’t really good at entertaining. But serving the Lord and His people–that’s not really something we can keep saying “no” to because Jesus tells us to serve others!
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EmmaSowl
Guest
Amen.
Caveat: People love to listen to singing of songs they enjoy.
There’s gonna be HUGE disagreement as to what’s enjoyable. I like The Kinks and Beethoven; others like Up With People or the Jonas Brothers.
The GIRM settles those arguments: pride of place goes to chant.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the GIRM does not say “intricate” chant.
The missal (I’ve said this so much) seems to be the only official book in our pews which states the truth: when to stand, when to bow, when to kneel, when to beat one’s breast, when (if ever) to hold one’s hands in the air.
And the missal provides alternate texts and simple chant.
You said it, friend!
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EmmaSowl
Guest
I now routinely and purposely sing the original words - mostly because, half the time, the words aren’t provided to the faithful.Oops – I kept singing the wrong words from habit…
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EmmaSowl
Guest
AMEN!!!
But how would a newcomer know that if the priest doesn’t speak of it and the entire Mass is centered around the musical performances?
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EmmaSowl
Guest
No, it was Peeps (and possibly others) who said chant was difficult.
But the question remains for anyone who thinks the non-chant status quo is A-OK.
The following is not directed at you: will someone puh-lease tell me what’s hard about chant?
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EmmaSowl
Guest
Answer: It is good when directed to God; it is bad when directed to Satan; it depends on whether or not the neutral party is in conformance with God.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
Where did you get that point? What Church document?
Are you under the impression that an individual bishop can ignore instructions agreed upon by the bishops in union with Rome?
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EmmaSowl
Guest
I agree that self-examination is extremely fruitful (just went to Confession!).
But I still do not understand why you seem to be under the impression that a bishop is king of his diocese. I believe he still must follow rules which have been proclaimed higher up the chain of authority. Perhaps this is where our discussion could be most fruitful.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
It was extremely difficult to watch. Had to try three times before I saw the whole thing - just in case there was a redeeming element I missed at the beginning.
I think this video was why I needed a break from CAF (that, and the anniversary of First Hubby’s death - which led to my conversion).
The worst part is, that stupid (and, yes, in some ways, haunting) song has been in my head for a week. Pray for me!
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EmmaSowl
Guest
Omg, Peeps, you’re like MY mom!!!
My mom (God bless her departed soul) was not Protestant nor religious at all. But she was theatrical. She put on summer plays to keep the kids from being bored. We did Wizard of Oz in our backyard and Mary Poppins in the elementary school auditorium.
Eventually, she was one of less than a half dozen people who founded the community theatre group in our budding town - a group which (I think) is now profitable.
She was (barely) in movies and TV - even had a scene with Gary Cooper in Springfield Rifle.
She is probably why my (lol, worthless) Phi Beta Kappa, magna cum laude degree from UCLA is in Motion Picture/Film Production…
…which led to my career in the poker industry. ;p
Have you seen anything change which might explain the lack of interest? Because I have.
I routinely witness non-singing people sing the minute they are given something singable which is worth singing.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
This is really sad. Singing should be part of formation. I cannot tell you how often the daily Mass has been lifted (for me) beyond anything professionally sung at a High Holy Mass because the priest was sincere and simple in his singing and the 30-50 people in the pews joined in full force.
It’s the opposite at my church. I’ve demonstrated that I’m ready, willing, and able. Parishioners have begged for me (trust me, not because I’m so great but because what we have is so awful). All I asked for was one week’s notice that I’d be singing. Response: crickets.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
In my diocese, there are quite a few songs (and chants) which almost everyone sings. The problem is that our choirs refuse to use them.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
I’m glad you’re ranting. It helps shed light. We have similar backgrounds and experiences, but also quite a few that are seriously different.
I’ll share the story of our present Main Church (as opposed to the two Mission Churches who share the same pastor and priests as the Main Church).
We had a choir director. Voice of an angel. I don’t know if she was paid or not (but she should’ve been). She got sick and a Director of Liturgy was hired. Rumors are a 6-figure salary; he brings in professionals quite a bit.
The first thing he did was switch the time of the “traditional” Mass. Please know that, at our parish, “traditional” did not mean Latin or even chant. It just meant a bunch of old broads singing hymns like “Amazing Grace” and doing some fancy (but well-known) stuff at Christmas and Easter.
Switching the time meant losing part of the choir. Then he decided that we needed the choir downstairs, which pretty much led to anyone over 40 leaving the choir because they didn’t want to be stared at and/or didn’t like having to trip over wires for Communion. (Ironically, the downstairs move was promoted as something that would help elderly and disabled choir members; we used to have elderly and disabled choir members - now we don’t).
There are easily a half-dozen voices in our choir which are downright gorgeous (including our old choir director) - and the singers are willing to cantor. But our DL prefers cantors with music degrees (whom, he insists, deserve payment).
Again, the songs performed are now too high, too fast, and the notes are not given. No wonder the faithful have given up trying.
In the four parishes I’ve been fully a part of, every single one has chosen a musical direction that has eliminated big choirs and left the faithful standing bored during the songs.
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EmmaSowl
Guest
…or proper apologetics.
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