The Power of Music

[EmmaSowl]

We have a Willow Creek “church plant” in our city (many cities have them), and on any given Sunday, one tenth of our population of slightly over 100,000 people attend services at this church.

That’s a whole lot of people.

Is truth determined by popular vote?

MANY of the people who attend these services are Catholics. I know Catholics who attend Mass and then go the Willow Creek church plant to hear the really well-done contemporary Christian music done by professional (therefore, salaried) musicians.

Why in the world would a Catholic do that? I appreciate that they first attend Mass (thank God!), but why then attend a concert when, if one really yearns for those types of songs, he can get them on YouTube or iTunes? Perhaps those Catholics are drawn to Concert Fever. I think Catholics should forego Concert Fever if it gives rise to the scandal of looking like Catholics embrace false doctrines and “worship” without God on the altar.

The reason Willow Creek matters to the Catholic liturgy is that it influences Christian’s preferences in music. When we are attempting to evangelize, we MUST understand the culture that we are evangelizing.

10% of people in a subset of Chicago is not the American culture.

The American culture is YouTube, iTunes, Instagram, Snap Chat, Twitter, rap, video games, Hollywood, and Netflix, et al.

All of those institutions laugh at contemporary Christian music, which is just re-hashed 70’s 'member berries (sorry, “'member berries” is a South Park reference - and comedy like South Park is another example of actual American culture).

Missionaries who go overseas do not expect the people to be like them. They spend a lot of time studying the language and learning to understand, APPRECIATE, and even love the culture of the people they hope to see convert to Christianity.

Yes, yes, YES! (Btw, I really APPRECIATE South Park; I think they might be secular prophets - you should see the brutally honest way they treat abortion). Because I want to understand the actual culture, I study and engage with the things I listed above. However, I have not yet been called to study and engage with the small sub-set of people who think Nostalgia 2.0 is the Real Culture.

And if I may personally gripe: I am a convert from atheism (which just might possibly mean I have an insight into how to deal with non-Catholic/non-Christian/non-religious culture), but whenever I point out what I’ve experienced, I’m told I’m wrong - wrong about my own experience!

Here’s a link to Willow Creek.

Why in the world would I be interested in Willow Creek (unless it has a logical syllogism which disproves the Catholic Church - after all, the last thing I want is to be in a false church)?

 

[EmmaSowl]

Here’s just one example: Vatican II

I believe that one of the reasons this Church council happened was because so many Catholics were leaving Holy Mother Church to become Protestant.

Do you have the figures on how many went Protestant vs. how many went lapsed or agnostic/atheist? Because such figures would make a difference in analyzing the problem.

At the Protestant churches, they liked being able to understand the language during the “worship service.”

So do I. But was that just a look-at-the-Protestants thing or was it a we’re-an-educated-flock-who-wants-more-communication thing?

They liked the youth groups and children’s clubs and ladies’ and men’s Bible studies, and family life training, and all the opportunities for service to each other and to the world They liked VBS and summer camps and the choirs and the SINGING, the glorious congregational singing, and Singspiration-style singing during Sunday school and Sunday evening vesper services, and the organ AND piano combination that livened everything up and the “body life”–so many opportunities to fellowship and make friends during the week in Christ-centered activities

Many of the things I mentioned above are now offered by Catholic parishes as a result of Vatican II

And are those things keeping Catholics in the Church?

You say “as a result of Vatican II” but are you sure the truth isn’t simply that they happened “after” V2 - not necessarily as a result.

Btw, I’ve been in EXTREMELY Catholic study groups which strengthened my faith and knowledge immensely, but only two of those groups were part of a parish - in fact, the one which strengthened me the most was rejected by the pastor of the leader’s local parish.

Before you think it was a wacko group, please know that the leader was made a Benemerenti (form of papal knight) by Cardinal Roger Mahoney, and his wife worked with the Farm Workers Union and once served lunch to Cesar Chavez in their home.

But other than the Bereavement Group and the Knights of Columbus outreach to juveniles who were incarcerated, not one parish group I’ve belong to has brought in any converts to the faith or even done anything to keep parish Catholics in the pews.

In fact, when I was a third-order Maryknoll (I formally resigned years after taking a vow which I was told could mean anything I wanted and could end whenever I wanted - and yet, despite the idiocy of that concept, I still took because I felt pressured but knew I could escape), I spent most of my time arguing with Maryknoll priests and nuns as to why abortion was wrong.

More in next post…

 

[EmmaSowl]

replaced with Praise and Worship bands, which are now heard in CATHOLIC parishes, too–again, a “fad” that has been picked up by Catholic churches

Those Praise and Worship bands are emptying the pews in my area.

And how are songs more worshipful than adoring and consuming the Body of Christ?

a LOT of Catholics leave Holy Mother Church to attend the Evangelical Protestant churches, and many times, the reason they give is that “the Catholic Church is so dead.”

They’re right - much of it seems dead. Mainly because (in America) it’s abandoned teaching the reasons for the faith and spent it’s energy on lame pep rallies that will never match Protestant extravaganzas (for the few decades they last).

But the Catholic Church will never die. She is Christ’s bride. If people cannot stick with the Bride for better or worse, that is not the Bride’s fault.

 

[EmmaSowl]

I cringe when I hear Catholics long to “go back to the old days.”

I do not want to go back to the old days. I want to obey the newest instructions by the US bishops which was approved by Rome. I think it’s only about a decade old.

EmmaSowl, the reason chant doesn’t work is that we simply don’t have the musical “chops” that we used to have.

How many times do I have to address the fact that, at daily Mass, when a lone priest chants (regardless of his skill level), the miniscule congregation sings louder than a full house on Sunday with a professional choir?

Please explain why that is.

Please explain what it is about the average layman’s “chops” that keeps him from singing simple, straightforward chant.

And they have picked up habits like “sliding” that are part of rock and country music

Where I live, only the performers do that - leaving the faithful at a loss.

And we don’t BREATHE properly

When I cantor, breathing is huge for me. But it doesn’t matter for a full congregation. Anyone can breathe whenever he wants and there are always others who are picking up the slack.

Besides, the goal of singing is not to produce The World’s Perfect Choir; the goal of singing is that as many people who can join in sung prayer to God.

Chant in the Church needs to start with CHILDREN

I don’t know if it needs to START there, but I agree that it needs to BE there - along with apologetics.

 

[Peeps]

How many times do I have to address the fact that, at daily Mass, when a lone priest chants (regardless of his skill level), the miniscule congregation sings louder than a full house on Sunday with a professional choir?

I’m glad this happens in your parish. It does not happen in the parishes in my city.

You do say “at daily Mass.” It’s been my experience that daily Masses consist primarily of retired folks, most of whom grew up with the Latin Mass and are familiar with chant; some of the men probably even were in the schola when they were young or served as altar boys.

Senior citizens in general grew up with fine music programs in their schools and also sang as a family activity in their homes. I sure did! (I’m 62.) So it’s not surprising that they will sing out at Mass.

Also, people who regularly attend daily Mass are generally pre-disposed to a high level of devotion and commitment to the Lord and His Church, although many others have that same passion for the Lord, but are unable to be at daily Mass due to work, school, and family commitments. (In other words, I’m not disparaging the commitment level of all the Catholics, including myself, who are only able to attend daily Mass occasionally–I’m only stating that it’s not surprising that daily Mass attendees will sing out.)

Professional choir? Your choir is paid?!

And do you have a “full house” on Sundays at your Masses? We do at the 8:00, 9:30, and 11:00 Sunday Masses, and also at the 4:30 Saturday evening Mass–it’s standing room only. The Sunday evening 6:00 p.m. Mass is full but not packed. The 6:30 Sunday a.m. or the 12:30 Sunday afternoon Mass have a nice crowd, but hardly packed.

 

[Peeps]

I do not want to go back to the old days. I want to obey the newest instructions by the US bishops which was approved by Rome. I think it’s only about a decade old.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Peeps:

EmmaSowl, heaven forbid that I would advocate disobedience to Holy Mother Church!

But like it or not, as long as the hymns that you dislike so strongly are in the Catholic hymnals which are approved by the U.S. bishops–I and many other parishes are NOT disobeying Rome by singing and playing them.

I agree that any hymns not in those hymnals should be cleared with the priests first. This week, I played for a Teardrops service at our parish, and the priest asked me to play some background music during the Litany of St. Joseph. I chose two pieces, one classical (Litany by Schubert) and one contemporary (The Lord is My Shepherd by Keith Green), and asked Father which piece he preferred. (He selected the Schubert, in case you’re wondering.)

I have been taught all my life in PROTESTANT churches to be subject to the governing authorities, including church authorities. IF Holy Mother Church banned all contemporary music and all hymns, and commanded all parishes to sing only chant, of course I would comply. I don’t think this is likely, and I think many Catholics would be very upset. I think that if Holy Mother Church ever did decide to do this, She would be wise to implement several months and even years of preparation, with lots of training, especially in the schools, but also in adult classes that all members could sign up for.

Again, this isn’t likely. I just received my issue of American Guild of Organists magazine, and the numbers of organ students in the U.S. are depressing–very very small numbers, and many colleges have ended their organ programs due to no participants at all for years. Organ and chant go hand in hand. (Piano is awful with chant!)

And if numbers are low here in the U.S., I can’t even imagine how low they are in post-Christian Europe, or in the other nations. Perhaps Asia has a strong participation, but Asia is one of the least Christian areas of the world.

 

[pnewton]

Is truth determined by popular vote?

Truth? This thread is dealing with a discipline, that is what is best for liturgy, not doctrine.

10% of people in a subset of Chicago is not the American culture.

Culture is not defined by national boundaries. That is why local bishops have authority to adjust to their local situations.

Those Praise and Worship bands are emptying the pews in my area.

Then in such a case, they are not best for this area. They wouldn’t fly here either, except maybe in one case I know. Yet in some areas:

We do at the 8:00, 9:30, and 11:00 Sunday Masses, and also at the 4:30 Saturday evening Mass–it’s standing room only.

We have two Masses that are SRO, one full and two that are less than half full, but that is after going from four to five Masses, and building an addition in the last decade. The point is, if something works, and is allowable, then the priest (bishop or whoever) is making good decisions.

 

[EmmaSowl]

It’s been my experience that daily Masses consist primarily of retired folks, most of whom grew up with the Latin Mass

That is true for me, too - but the same is true for most of our Sunday Masses, especially the Mission Mass I lector at.

Also, people who regularly attend daily Mass are generally pre-disposed to a high level of devotion and commitment to the Lord and His Church,

Wouldn’t it be great if we could inspire more of that devotion and commitment in those who can only make it on Sunday by giving them the treasures they were promised in the newest GIRM and help make up for them being denied those treasures when they were younger?

although many others have that same passion for the Lord, but are unable to be at daily Mass due to work, school, and family commitments.

Agreed. In my case, I have only been able to attend daily Mass when my work schedule was happily suited for it or when I was unemployed.

Professional choir? Your choir is paid?!

Not the Mission Mass choir. In fact, I think they are treated rather shabbily by the Director of Liturgy from the main parish. Get hand-me-down hymnals, no cantor support when they need time off, must use (and wear out) their own instruments and sound equipment.

But the Director of Liturgy once explained to the rest of the cantors that a returning parishioner would, of course, need to be paid for her cantoring because she now had a degree in music. The other cantors wouldn’t be paid, but the returning one would because, I guess, having a degree in music means no longer having to volunteer for God.

We have a lot of non-parishioner cantors now, and for some reason (perhaps I’m uncharitable), I don’t think they’re doing it for free - why would they when we have good parishioner cantors willing to do it for free?

And do you have a “full house” on Sundays at your Masses?

Since we hired our DL, the Mass attendance has steadily dwindled. No full houses. The choir, also, has dwindled from about 20 to 4.

In fact, I just learned that the main church was passing out flyers asking parishioners what kind of music they prefer and what is keeping good singers from joining the choir.

So, clearly, ever since we hired a Hollywood-connected DL who brings in paid professionals, something has gone wrong, and the parish thinks it may be music related.

Lol, when I found out about the survey, you’d better believe I ran and filled one out!

Ack - running late for work. But I’m going to ask you (and anyone professionally involved in church music) if you know anything about a “sheet”. If that sounds confusing, believe me, I’m confused, too, but I’ll explain more when I have time to post about it, and maybe someone will be able to clear up the mystery for me.

 

[Peeps]

In fact, I just learned that the main church was passing out flyers asking parishioners what kind of music they prefer and what is keeping good singers from joining the choir.

I think the situation in your parish is common in many places in the U.S.

I’m going to tell you why I think that “good singers” don’t join the choir.

Many musicians and other “arts” people are sympathetic to the LGBTQ community, or they are LGBTQ themselves, and they are deliberately boycotting the choir or any involvement in the arts in their parishes because they strongly disagree with the stance of the Catholic Church in regards to the “disordered condition” and “same sex marriage.”

Let me hasten to say that I am in entire agreement with Holy Mother Church concerning these issues.

In our parish, a gay music minister “came out” to the schoolchildren in the parish school, and he was fired. This created a gigantic controversy in our city–we made local news for weeks and weeks. My husband and I were not Catholic at the time, but in RCIA, and we were in agreement with the Catholic Church.

The man in question was an amazing organist, one of the best, and I loved hearing him play. But again, I think he was wrong to deliberately disregard the teachings of the Catholic Church when he was employed by the Church, and especially in front of children.

Anyway, the results of this conflict are still occurring almost 15 years later. Our parish was put on an AGO (American Guild of Organists–a very strong guild, almost union-like) blacklist, and NO AGO organist was allowed to play at our parish. This eliminated almost ALL the organists in the city from subbing or playing at our parish. Thankfully they hired a wonderful Catholic family man who is an excellent organist, conductor, singer, and pianist, and has extensive knowledge of the liturgy, and a strong commitment to the doctrines and dogma of Holy Mother Church.

In solidarity with this fired gay music minister, dozens, perhaps hundreds of musicians (singers, mainly) left our parish and either started attending Protestant “inclusive” churches, or stopped attending church altogether.

So even if your parish doesn’t have a conflict like this (yet), it’s very possible that the singers in the congregation are deliberately showing “unity” with the LGBTQ community and boycotting any involvement with your parish music.

So sad.

 

[EmmaSowl]

So even if your parish doesn’t have a conflict like this (yet), it’s very possible that the singers in the congregation are deliberately showing “unity” with the LGBTQ community and boycotting any involvement with your parish music.

I can assure you that of the three parishes I’ve regularly attended since RCIA since I was baptized out of atheism in 1993 at the age of 32, nothing remotely like this has been the case in the parishes I’ve attended and volunteered for.

Having grown up in community theatre, I think I have a healthy sense of gaydar and, while I have encountered quite a few people in Catholic music who strike me as homosexual (my favorite choir director came out to me after a decade), I do not believe our current DL is.

He replaced a woman who had volunteered for years but became too ill to continue. He is talented and well-connected. After I had both joined and quit his choir, I found out from the friend who cantored my wedding that she studied under him and thought he was a fantastic teacher.

It was pure disconnect for me to hear these things, but then I developed a theory (who knows if it’s true?): my friend has the voice of an angel, she is kind (once gave me wonderful Catholic advice when I was in pain and asked for her insight on a personal matter), she is pretty, and in the decades since I first met her, she has become the Director of Liturgy for one of the Cathedral choirs.

In short, who In the world wouldn’t be their best around her? Lord knows I always try to be.

But our DL did not behave the same with the elderly choir he inherited. He spent much of rehearsal time reminiscing about the good old days at his old parish or telling us about the extravaganza he was composing. He gave us music copied at an angle, and we had to use rehearsal time writing in the words which were cut off at the bottom. He changed the syncopation with handwritten tiny dots much smaller than the printed notation. He broke the choir in two. He changed the rehearsal times. He changed the choir times. He changed our location at Mass (I quit when he moved us to the sanctuary).

He did all of this while claiming to be promoting a traditional Mass and helping the elderly and disabled. The practical result was that one by one, the elderly and disabled and those who wanted to sing something traditional began to drop out. Eventually, he sent out a choir email firing everyone and saying he would hold auditions if anyone who had been fired wanted to audition. Then he stood in the sanctuary at all the Masses and lied about what happened to the choir while asking others to audition.

Now and then some 30-50-year-old fresh faces show up in the choir, but they don’t stay long. The bulletin announces pleas for choir members regularly and even recently tried to promote a Sing-Along Night. Now the parish is putting out a survey.

Yet, when the devoted volunteers from the choir originally brought their concerns to the pastor, he brushed them off - and has still not reached out to those sheep who were pushed to the edge of the field for any insight they might have.

 

[Peeps]

That’s tough. It sounds like your DL is not a very good manager. I wonder if he has some kind of mental issue (early onset Alzheimers?) that is making it difficult for him to be effective in his position.

So sorry about this.

 

[EmmaSowl]

The point is, if something works, and is allowable, then the priest (bishop or whoever) is making good decisions.

I agree. 100%.

(Of course, none of the decisions have been working in the parishes I’ve attended).

But the best point you made is noting that things should be allowable.

You also stated:

Truth? This thread is dealing with a discipline, that is what is best for liturgy, not doctrine.

First, the liturgy should never undermine doctrine.

Second, we are also called to obey discipline. If something is not allowed, it shouldn’t be done, even if it works.

Also, I’d like to mention that there are things that work in the short run but are devastating in the long run.

 

[EmmaSowl]

Okay, here comes my inquiry about The Sheet - and I open it up to all who have good knowledge of how parish music works.

For awhile, I emergency cantored at the Mission Mass I attend. A few times I’d be given a heads up and a few times I’d be asked to do it when I walked in the door.

Often (especially when I’d just walked in the door), the woman who seems to be in charge of the logistics of setting up and communicating with the main church (a woman who is very nice and helpful), insisted I choose the songs from this sheet which had about 3 or 4 suggestions for songs to be sung during each particular part of that particular Mass day.

We politely but tensely discussed/argued about the sheet for various practical and liturgical reasons, but I would end up just ignoring it because it really sucked.

She, on the other hand, continuously brought it up and seemed to think it held near-Scripture status.

Finally, I went to the pastor to ask about the sheet and he had no idea what it was.

That is the big point: the PASTOR had no idea what it was.

So he emailed the DL asking him to email me an explanation. The DL (who hates me - for understandable reasons) never emailed me - not even after I asked the pastor to make a second request for explanation and the pastor said he would.

Strangely enough, the DL does not follow that sheet at the main church.

That is another big point: the DIRECTOR OF LITURGY doesn’t follow the sheet.

So, does anyone know what in the world this sheet is? It’s very official looking. If it helps, I live in the diocese of LA.

Anyway, that’s when I ended up quitting my emergency cantoring. It was too much tension (and last-minute surprise) to endure when no one in authority was willing or able to answer the simple questions I had.

I do continue to lead the singing at public, pro-life rosaries - which are events where I never see the faces I routinely see in the sanctuary. HOWEVER (thanks be to God!), our brand-new, just-out-of-seminary associate pastor (lol, translation: priest) joined us at the last one! Praise be to God! (I think it goes without saying that he is not American born).

But if anyone here can shed any light at all upon what that sheet thing is (and if it’s nothing, why the pastor did not feel free to say “that’s silly; ignore it”), I would be extremely grateful.

 

[Peeps]

But if anyone here can shed any light at all upon what that sheet thing is (and if it’s nothing, why the pastor did not feel free to say “that’s silly; ignore it”), I would be extremely grateful.

I don’t cantor, but I play organ/piano on a substitute basis for Masses, not only at my own parish, but at several others.

The hymns are always planned several months in advance, and I am emailed a copy of the scheduled hymns for each Mass. At the parishes where I sub, usually two of the hymns are “traditional” e.g., Holy God, We Praise They Name," etc. and two of them are “St. Louis Jesuit” e.g., “Here I Am, Lord.”

At my parish, the priest (we have three, and I’m talking about the Senior Priest) has asked the Music Minister to include at least 1 “real contemporary” hymn in the Mass, meaning a hymn that was written fairly recently. He is doing this at the request of many of the parishioners, and so far, the “contemporary” hymns that have been done, are, IMO, among the best of the currently Christian contemporary hymns, e.g., “10,000 Reasons,” (voted in one poll as the Best P and W hymn ever, which I disagree with, but I definitely think it’s a good hymn with a lovely melody and easy for a congregation to join in on)…

But I have no clue what “the Sheet” is. Sounds like a shroud from the way you describe it.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Is this a joke?

Library : Cardinal Mahony Wants Liturgy Purged of all European Elements

Cardinal Mahony Wants Liturgy Purged of all European Elements Teresa Cepeda comments on the countless doctrinal errors, including a total ignorance of the sacramental nature of the Mass, that are found in the draft of Cardinal Mahoney's pastoral letter on the liturgy.

www.catholicculture.org

 

[EmmaSowl]

Having participated in the cardinal’s lay convention shortly before he issued Gather Faithfully Together, and knowing the politics of that convention, I sincerely doubt it’s a joke. Cardinal Mahoney has been demoralizing LA Catholics both before and after his forced retirement over abuse scandals and gross monetary negligence.

 

[pnewton]

That is from a 1997 article in The Wanderer.